Using TROS as a training aid for the study of Combative Art?

[kanseg]

I was just wondering if anyone else has considered using TROS as an aid to their studies of Martial Arts (Eastern or Western - I'm not biased, guys!).

If you think about the fact that TROS does have one of the best melee simulation systems, then surely it provides an excellent virtual reality world in which you can train strategies and tactics of hand to hand combat?  There have been various studies which confirm that visualisation of an activity can help the performance of that activity.  I know of several martial arts teachers who are using Neural Linguistic Programming in their teaching and personal training.

Once a month a couple of friends get together with me and we train.  The system of study is primarily based on my studies of Filipino Martial arts but I am adding elements I have been gathering from my studies of online Western Martial Arts resourses (heresy!!!).  My friends have Viking ancestors and so they have an interest in exploring the axe but we also cover blade work as well as the unarmed arts - boxing, grappling (plus limited low-line kicking)

I have discussed with them the idea of spending the evening playing TROS after our training session not only because we are keen RPG'ers but because it will also help reinforce the lessons learned from our sparring in the garden.  As an aside we use various training tools such as hard foam weapons, plastic weapons, padded weapons and wooden replicas (they are not really ready for the live weapons yet, lol).  We have protection of the head with various types of helmet from fencing masks up to the full steel cage helments from full-contact stick fighting.  I also recommend the use of safety googles and hand protection.  We are trying to train with realism but keeping safety firmly in mind.  I also plan that if we have any interesting situations in the gaming session, then we can explore these in the next day's training session.

Please let me know what you think.  What I am really looking for is feedback to enrich our experience.  Do you have any suggestions?

Thanks in advance!

Respectfully

Harry

[Camillus]

Although TRoS has the backing of ARMA I don't think it has that much value as a study aid - other than emphasising the fact that all weapons are dangerous, even in relatively unskilled hands.

On the other hand any excuse for role-playing is a good one, so it has value in that context.

If you're seriously interested in historical European martial arts (HEMA) then I suggest a scout around the Chivalry Bookshelf and Paladin Press for paper resources. I'd recommend deciding on a period and style that interest you and sticking with it rather than trying to mix, say rapier and schweihander.

If you're into the Vikings then the Chivalry Bookshelf is about to produce a translation of I.33, the earliest known manual on sword play, dating from the 13th Century (IIRC). They're also producing a book discussing its techniques to go with it, for those of us without the time for a lot of research. I've already ordered mine :) You'll also want a copy of Spada I which has an excellent article on the use of the shield and a lot of other very interesting articles on historical swordsmanship.

As an Englishmen I have to of course recommend Silver and his Paradoxes of Defense as the single best manual available. Paladin Press are producing a new version of it soon so I'll be acquiring that as well.

Online you won't go far wrong if you hang around the Sword Forum International bulletin boards - they have one specifically for HEMA.

By the sound of things you've already got a good handle on the various other internet resources, so I won't bother posting them here.

One thing - most "serious" practioners of HEMA look down on boffers (padded weapons) because the weight and balance are wrong. That means that you tend to pick up bad habits and become used to being able to pull off tricks that are none starters with a real weapon. Wooden weapons (wasters) are OK if the balance and weight are right.

After writing all that I realise you probably already know it, but what the hell, perhaps there's something useful in there :D

[kanseg]

Thanks for the response, Camillus.

I have to admit The Chivalry Bookshop was not one I knew of before - I will have to take a serious look!

The padded weapons we are using are actually the wooden weapons we normally use but because one of my teacher's students is an engineer he has developed a process of encasing them in foam.  In consequence the balance is not too bad.

After writing all that I realise you probably already know it, but what the hell, perhaps there's something useful in there :D

My friend there is always something new to learn and I do not hesitate to say I found your post useful.  It's when you think that there is nothing new to learn that you stop learning.

With that spirit in mind despite being what you would call an Eastern Martial Artist (and occasionally as Jake would say being guilty in the past of wearing stupid white pyjamas ), I have recently ordered various Western Martial Arts manuals from Amazon such as the following:
Codex Wallerstein
Medieval Combat: A Fifteenth-century Manual of Swordfighting and Close-quarter Combat - Hans Talhoffer
Italian Medieval Swordsmanship "The Flos Duellatorum" of Fiore Dei Liberi

I am also hoping over the next few days to get a chance to look at a paper copy of George Silvers' 'Paradoxes of Defence'.   If I am lucky I might be allowed to make a photocopy!

I also feel I should note that I know playing the TROS game in no way replaces actual training.  However, because my friends are part of my roleplaying group I feel it is not only an excuse to play a game I love, but also to reinforce the actual training.

Regards

Harry

[Irmo]

Codex Wallerstein
Medieval Combat: A Fifteenth-century Manual of Swordfighting and Close-quarter Combat - Hans Talhoffer
Italian Medieval Swordsmanship "The Flos Duellatorum" of Fiore Dei Liberi

I am also hoping over the next few days to get a chance to look at a paper copy of George Silvers' 'Paradoxes of Defence'.   If I am lucky I might be allowed to make a photocopy!

Just be aware that you are assembling a collection here that covers partially VERY different styles. Certainly ok if you're interested in what you can do with a sword, but less fit to discern how people actually fought with swords. Not the least, they're frequently based on somewhat different swords, varying in length of both blade and hilt, and thus of varying suitability for techniques that require a specific number of hands holding the blade.

[kanseg]

Irmo

I will keep your advice in mind.  I have experienced that in my own FMA training.  There are different systems for fighting with different length blades and of course whether you have a one-handed or two-handed weapon.  To be honest I am getting all these manuals because I want an overview of the various forms of medieval blade work as well as hopefully to see how shields and bucklers were used.  I've not come across direct usage of shields and bucklers in my studies of FMA's, although several systems of doble baston/espada (double stick/sword) seem to derive positions from sword and shield.  

It will be a fun test of intellect to see if I can decipher useful information out of the text and plates.  I'm aware that at a certain stage I will need to seek out expert tuition and hopefully by then I will have the time spare.  My job seems to be requiring a lot of my time at the moment.

Respectfully

Harry

[Camillus]

To be honest I am getting all these manuals because I want an overview of the various forms of medieval blade work as well as hopefully to see how shields and bucklers were used.  

For sword and shield you definately want I.33, which is a sword and buckler manual, and Spada which has an excellent article on the use of the shield by Stephen Hand and Paul Wagner.

As a general introduction to western techniques you can't go far wrong with Terry Brown's English Martial Arts (in fact I'm kicking myself for not mentioning it earlier). It contains a good overview of techniques but is a hybrid system derived from a variety of sources rather than a "pure" manual. It can be difficult to get hold of (Amazon claim it's unavailable) but I know its still in print.

Trying to mix and match from the sources you've got might be quite a challenge. Most HEMA practitioners tend to concentrate on just one style (German, Italian, English or Spanish IIRC).

The padded wasters sound interesting. Are you using "proper" wasters or adapting wooden weapons from other arts?

Cheers

[kanseg]

Camillus said:

The padded wasters sound interesting. Are you using "proper" wasters or adapting wooden weapons from other arts?

I have to be honest and say I have never used the wasters used by practitioners of WMA.  The wooden weapons we use are those I have acquired from my teacher, who gets them shipped in from his teacher in the Philippines.  I am actually going out to the Philippines later this year and hope to see exactly what they use for training and see what items might be more useful for the training I plan.  

I actually have a copy of Terry Brown's English Martial Arts.  It was actually recommended to me by my FMA teacher.  I will read it tonight - I completely forgot I had it and I only flicked through when I first got it before sticking it on a bookshelf (duh!).

I agree with the philosphy of sticking to one particular system when you are trying to develop a strong foundation and plumb its depths.  I freely admit however that at this stage I am skimming the surface of WMA.  I may well focus on a particular area as I learn more.

Thank you again for your assistance and I will be taking a good look through The Chivalry Bookshop later this week.  One final question - are these books you mentioned like 'Spada' also available from the Royal Armouries at Leeds?

Regards

Harry

[Camillus]

Thank you again for your assistance and I will be taking a good look through The Chivalry Bookshop later this week.  One final question - are these books you mentioned like 'Spada' also available from the Royal Armouries at Leeds?

Regards

Harry

Don't know. The I.33 translation is produced in conjunction with the Royal Armouries so I would imagine it will be (The RA holds the original manuscript). As to the others - possibly, but as I said I don't know.

Cheers

[kanseg]

Camillus

Final post from me on this thread (unless something interesting comes up!).  I have ordered the books you listed from The Chivalry Bookstore.  Now I'm just waiting for them to arrive with a high level of anticipation.

I an very grateful for the advice you have provided (and you too Irmo) - thank you both!

Respectfully

Harry

[Jake Norwood]

As an interesting development note, our ARMA endorsement came in large part due to a few senior members running melees in TROS, trying to use the same kinds of moves and strategies that they themselves liked to use in actual sparring against each other. The results were surprisingly consistent with what sparring produced, even after perhaps 70 or so matches with many different "fighters." That's when those playtesters reccomended the game go for some kind of endorsement.

OTOH, I will be the first to say that it's NOT a combat simulation game, and no game will be able to really capture all the subtelty of real combat (doesn't mean we ain't gonna try). I've learned so much about actual swordfighting, etc., since writing TROS that I'm going to try to bring to light in TFOB (it's a hard thing to do, though).

So no, I don't think that you can learn WMA from TROS in any degree, but it is fun to use it as a lab for "what if?" and then to test it against full-speed sparring. I'd give it about a 70-85% accuracy rate.

Jake

[kanseg]

So no, I don't think that you can learn WMA from TROS in any degree, but it is fun to use it as a lab for "what if?" and then to test it against full-speed sparring. I'd give it about a 70-85% accuracy rate.

That's exactly how I'm proposing to use it, Jake.  If anything I think because of the fun involved in the actual playing of the game it can be a very enjoyable way of continuing 'mental' training after a good physical session or as you suggest a method of seeing 'what if?'.  I think the key to using the game successfully in this context is to have a clear idea of what you are attempting.  There will of course always be times when you wish to just chill out and play the game without ulterior motives.

BTW it is good to see you back, Jake.  Hope you had a great time!

One final point - for other people interested in WMA's, I have found out that the Royal Armouries at Leeds, UK actually supplies quality photstat copies of the old fencing manuals.  I have just received George Silver's 'Paradoxes of Defence' from 1599 as well as a couple of more recent manuals (1899 or thereabouts).   Paladin Press have also informed me that they will be releasing 'Paradoxes of Defence' in November 2003.  Hope that was useful information to you guys (and gals)!

Regards

Harry

[Spartan]

I'd give it about a 70-85% accuracy rate.

Pardon my language, but that's pretty fucking amazing when you think about it. :)  Pat yourself on the back again, Jake.  You deserve it.

-Mark