[Charnel Gods] Vanye's Demon

[Calithena]

It occurred to me that while the world of Morgaine's saga is fundamentally different in character from Naur Tier, there is a kind of isomorphism between Morgaine's and Vanye's quests to destroy the Gates and the sort of thing that goes on in a Charnel Gods campaign. Many things are different, of course - Morgaine is a Harbinger from the start, and her acts of destroying the Gates are actually conceived of as benefitting humanity. The struggle involves all the inhuman things she and Vanye have to do to get there. As a campaign device, this would be sort of like having to keep your Humanity above zero as you worked your way through the world to the next Gate, whereupon it would be replenished to some degree by the final act, in preparation for the next round.

On the surface of it, Morgaine would seem to be the PC analogue, and Changeling the Fell weapon. However, the novels themselves suggest another possibility: Vanye is the agent, and Morgaine herself is his bound Demon, with Changeling yet another Demon bound to her.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi there,

I read these books a while ago, but not since Charnel Gods was written and published. With perhaps some pre-apology for gaps in my memory, let's check out a couple of issues they bring up.

1. I agree with you about Vanye being the main character. Morgaine is so iconic that I had a terrible time identifying with her (unlike, say, Tomoe Gozen or Sabriel). Changeling was the sword, right? (Or maybe I'm all mixed up here.) Whether the sword itself is a demon, under this interpretation, is actually an interesting question ... Morgaine could be defined as "demon-woman with a sword" and have that be all there is to it.

2. Interpreting destruction of the Gates in the novel as equivalent to the "destroy the setting" in Charnel Gods ... that seems like the sticking point to me. As you say, Humanity seems to be operating a bit differently, and it might be good to parse this out carefully. I am having a terrible time remembering just what that entailed in the books, so maybe I'll do a re-read.

3. What are some of the Humanity-threatening things Vanye (in particular) has to do or permit in order to reach the goal? As with most of Cherryh's male characters, he comes off to me as muted and kind of vague, so it's hard to see just where the decision-points are.

Best,
Ron

[Calithena]

Part of this depends on how we project our own personalities onto the characters in question, but I really liked Vanye. His honor, his culture, and eventually his world are among the things he has to sacrifice in the first book, and some of this continues throughout the trilogy. His binding to Morgaine versus his sense of honor and humanity actually is the driving mechanism of those books, so I think that is the connection I was seeing.

Again, though: it's not exactly the same as Charnel Gods, but the same characters perservering in trying to maintain their humanity across the repeated destruction of worlds seems like it 'fits' with some core motifs of Charnel Gods. So it might be on the one hand a good series for S&S to try to simulate, if one liked it at least, and on the other hand an interesting comparison point for someone trying to run a Charnel Gods campaign.

[David Chunn]

I loved the Morgaine Saga, but like Ron my memory of specifics is fading.  I don't have Charnel Gods, yet.  Hopefully it will make it into next month's book budget.  So I don't know the reference that began this.  However, here's my few bits on it.

I don't know that I identified with Morgaine per se, but that's who I was rooting for and was entranced by.  Vayne was the easy avenue into participating in the story, left just a little vague in spots for that purpose, I think.

Excluding rules and working on the complexities of story alone, I'd have to say that Morgaine's demon is the legacy that the sword represents.  She can't give up what she has to do, even though she wants to.  Vayne's demon could be Morgaine or vice-versa, especially once they're in love.  

But I would personally hesitate to call either a demon.  I would consider both of them to be PCs and primary characters.  Changeling is a demon.  Otherwise, everything else seems like drives and destinies for complex characters with intense relationships.

All in all, the whole set-up with the gates would make for an excellent rpg premise, a 'lighter' alternative to the heavy grimness of Charnel Gods (based on what little I've seen of it).

[Calithena]

Yeah, I think you could go either way. Morgaine was 'cool' (maybe too cool, as in excessively iconic, as Ron notes) but the question is how you want to RP it. I'd imagine it as a solo campaign, with Vanye as PC and Morgaine (or else Morgaine-plus-Changeling) as the demon(s). You could also do it as a two-PC campaign (provided the Vanye character doesn't mind being weaker, or at least not having a Fell).

[Calithena]

But anyway, we do not get much insight into Morgaine's psychology, and the inhumanity of her origin makes her easy to conceive of as a Demon. Whereas we get a huge insight into Vanye's psychology, which is (IMO) the moral and narrative driving force of these books.