Scene Framing and Turtles

[Loki]

I've been doing some reading about Scene Framing and think I have my head around it. In fact, one of my GM friends introduced me to this technique about a year ago, and I've been using it unconsciously ever since. Now that it's been brought to my attention, I am even more into it... but I've got a question about to what extreme you can use it, especially if you have one or more players that tends to "turtle" a bit.

If for instance the character is going to try to contact Santos, the local crime boss, and try to trade information... without framing that could look something like:

GM: Okay you wake up, what do you do?
Player: I eat breakfast and get in my car.
GM: Then what?
etc...

With framing, I'd be tempted to do something like:

GM: Santos' cooly takes a drag from his cigarette and blows it into your face. "I thought I told you never to show your face here again. Lou, take this wiseguy out back and loosen his tie."
Player: Before Lou drags me off, I say "I know where Melissa is hiding."
GM: Santos' nods to Lou. "Keep talking. And you better not be jerking me around, or I'll have Lou think up something special for you this time."

When I hear the term "aggressive framing" I think of something like:

GM: You wake up tied to a chair. Cement walls, single bare bulb, Lou wiping your blood off his pinky ring... oh yeah, now you remember: Santos' club. This must be the basement.
GM (Santos): "I thought I told you never to show your face in my club again."
Player: "Wait, I know where Melissa is hiding."

However I've got at least one turtle-ish player who might protest "how come I didn't get to fight my way out of the bar" or even "my character is an ex-special forces/CIA spook. He never even puts his pants on without scanning it for bugs/weapons. He can kill a guy with harsh language. No way."

I guess my questions are: is that aggressive framing? Even if it's not, how do you decide how much is too much to "cut" when it comes to framing? And if you've got a player who just doesn't like your framing, what then?

[Bob McNamee]

Sounds to me like both examples are "agressively framing" you into the critical role playing points leaving behind fluff like, "ok I leave the house and take 5th street bus".

I'll be most interested in seeing the responces of GMs with more experience cutting strongly like that to your questions about players and turtles.

Other than saying 'gauge your cutting style to the comfort of yourself and the players'...which isn't super helpful advise really.

[John Kim]

However I've got at least one turtle-ish player who might protest "how come I didn't get to fight my way out of the bar" or even "my character is an ex-special forces/CIA spook. He never even puts his pants on without scanning it for bugs/weapons. He can kill a guy with harsh language. No way."

I guess my questions are: is that aggressive framing? Even if it's not, how do you decide how much is too much to "cut" when it comes to framing? And if you've got a player who just doesn't like your framing, what then?

Well, my rule of thumb with skipping is to always assume the best for the PC.  If I skim over stuff which the PC did, I always assume that the PC did it as competantly as can possibly be expected.  As a result, the players come to realize is that they don't lose anything by skipping.  i.e. If we had played it out point-by-point, chances are the PC would have done worse.  This very directly removes the objection.  

With your example, I'm unlikely to have skipped that way.  If the character is ex-special-forces, I'll assume that he acts extremely competantly.  Thus, I might instead skip ahead to the scene after he has beaten Santos' men and he has Santos by the throat.  

I should note that my scene framing as GM is usually more negotiated than some other posters have described.  There will be a bit of back-and-forth dialogue about what we should jump ahead to and how we got there.  For example, in the last Vinland session we jumped to a visit which some of the PCs made to another homestead.  Before jumping ahead to the dialogue of the visit, we briefly discussed who would have gone.

[Loki]

The dialogue about framing is pretty interesting, though one question pops to mind: how do you give the players a choice without giving too much away?

E.g. asking the question "Do you want to start with you talking to Santos in the club or tied up on the chair in the basement?"  Means that the player now knows that Santos is not going to be friendly when they show up (or else presumably he wouldn't have clocked the player over the head).

Maybe trying to go for that kind of surprise doesn't matter as much with this kind of play... your thoughts? (All this reading about framing, etc is making me really excited to GM again--which rocks because I was utterly burned out about a month ago.)

[Mike Holmes]

This post got eaten twice, so I'm going to write the short version.

What John is getting at is that the "limit" is that you can't mess with the character concept (we talk about protagonists a lot). So, have him have killed a bunch of Santos' men before being captured, or, better yet, betrayed or something. Make his capture not his fault. That sort of thing. You can still have failure (every hero has conditions under which he'll fail), it just can't be an out of character failure.

Second, don't use this to railroad. What would happen if the player had the character spit on Santos? If that doesn't end up with a dead character, or other punishment to the player (as opposed to the character which is fine), then you're good. If you're doing it to push the plot forward by making decisions for the player, then you've messed up.

Mike

[jdagna]

My technique to skip over the details and frame scenes without provoking either suspicion or arguments is to provide the player with things that seems normal and double-check the details.

For example: "So, it's Monday today... your guy's probably getting into his power suit, slurping some coffee and swearing at traffic on the freeway, right?"

Some players just nod, others add details.  "And he's got his bazooka in the leg of his pants, like usual."  A few will object and re-write the scene entirely in some way.  You can avoid raising suspicion by doing this a lot - not only is it a good way to frame scenes, but it's a great way to describe background details if you're always interpreting and describing the character's day to day actions.

Either way, you've probably got enough information to proceed to the framing.  "You're in traffic and barely moving.  In fact, a bunch of guys are moving faster than the traffic on foot.  And, as soon as you notice them, they dart toward the car.  One guy pulls a gun and says 'Don't make this messy!  Santos has some questions for you and you better cooperate, buddy.'  Are you going to cooperate?"

Then, do more of the scene-filling.  "OK, so you decide to cooperate.  They pull you out of the car and into a van that's a few cars back, keeping a good hold on you.  Oh, and they noticed your bazooka, and want to take it away from you." Pause for a nod or objection.  "OK, if you're not resisting, which is a good idea, the bazooka gets pulled out of your pocket and they pull you into the van, which has handcuffs welded to one wall with a chair next to it.  They lock you in, and then speed off down the emergency lane to the nearest exit."

Anoter tip I use is John's suggestion that PCs should always be treated as competent and intelligent when you're skimming over their actions.

The other thing to do: make deals with your players.  Be up front and say something like "Hey, in this next scene some people are going to try and kidnap your character.  You've got my word as GM that they're only going to try to kill you if you attack them first."  Maybe you ruin some of the suspense... but that's not really the case.  You're changing the suspense, but you're also making it more enjoyable for the player by giving him some assurances about the situation and focusing his anxiety in the areas you intend it to be.

[Callan S.]

I've wondered about this...how do you do you just start with whats on page 10, instead of starting all the way back on page 1, but doing it  without cutting player control.

I'll just give examples rather than explain...

1. The players are in a bar having just DONE an archeology dig (not really, as GM I just say they have). Its all in a van (that I just gave them) outside. Then the van gets stolen...naturally they want 'their' stuff back. Even if they don't get it back, no loss...they didn't even own the van before.

2. Players come out only to see robbers and cops chasing each other in cars. Explosive rounds from the robbers destroy the bike and caravan each character owns (again, they own it because as GM I just then gave it to them for free). This was a good one, as the PC's didn't know each other, but got to get pissed off together!

3. Some school computers have been stolen and the PC's are asked to find them. You start the game in the bar where they have already found out where the computers are...because the computers don't matter (they don't even have to go get them). They instead see some guy about to get beaten up at the bar, who was supposed to have been abducted awhile ago and...yup, lots of hooks just keep getting thrown their way while they do this routine job (make finding the computers dead easy, its not supposed to be a challenge).

[Ron Edwards]

Hiya,

Look what I found! Scene framing, way back when. I think you guys will like it.

Best,
Ron