all you need is pre-emtive strike

[kidar]

hello,

I tried to search for similar topics but did not find good ones..

If I understood correctly, a pre-emptive strike (buying initiative) can be done when:

1) you threw "defence" but change your mind
2) you decide to attack instead of defence
3) both attack simultaneously and you are trying to win initiative again


Now, I think the pre-emtive strike is all too good. Not for poor skilled combatants but for high skilled ones. Here's an example:

Two duelists, both very good (CP 18) and both using rapiers. Both combatants have: PER6, WP5, REF6, WIT6
IMO the one who attacks first almost automatically loses the fight.
Let's see:

A attacks.
B says he tryes to buy initiative as defence.
B pays # of dice equal to A's PER (7).
 - CP left: 18-6 = 12
B pays 3 more dice and increases A's TN with 3.
 - CP left: 11-3 = 9

The contested roll:
A throws 6dice (wit) against TN of 9 (B's ref+3)
B throws 5dice (wp) against tn of 6 (A's ref)

It is VERY unlikely that A would win. And if B wins, he has still 9 dice (!) to use for his attack (which A can't parry/dodge/block). Or if B still feels unsafe, he could have use some more dice to increase A's TN.


Am i right with this example? Or have i missed something in the rules.
If I am right, it seems like the better the combatants the better is the pre-emptive strike.



kiD
[/b]

[Ashren Va'Hale]

you are living on the edge though as if you lose, you lost, no defense available and its a free shot for your opponent. Basically, if you miff it or fail you lose EVERYTHING, most likely limbs and or head included.

The activation cost can suck too if the opponent has a high perception, if you have a cp of 12 and your opponents perception is 6, then you are already at 1/2 your cp just to initiate the maneuver. then you have to spend dice to up the TN of the opponent, thats more CP gone, then you have to roll your attack and score a lethal hit with the craptastically few dice you have left, and if you dont kill your opponent he will likely have plenty fo dice left to hack you to itty bitty bit size pieces that he can then mince up and feed to his hounds.  If your opponent has armor on this becomes even more true. Basically, the cost to pull this off is very high then you run the risk of not killing your opponent instantly or wounding him enough to remove all his CP and he WILL have more dice than you when the maneuver is over if you dont zap all his dice with your attack, and you CAN NOT defend at all against his attack.

Basically, buying initiative is a gamble, one that can have a very high pay of, but the stakes are equally high.

and obviously the better the combatants the better the maneuver, the costs become less substantial when you have a higher combat pool just like all maneuvers. 2 cp activations for counters are nastier when you only have 10 cp, if you have 20 though, its nothing.

[Richard_Strey]

What you are missing in your calculations is the fact that you can buy initiative whenever you do not have it (for now excluding the first dice throw, as has been argued before). Ergo, buying initiative from someone with enough CP might just result in him buying it *back*, since once you bought it, the opponent does *not* have it any more. A bit mindboggling, but logical.

[Brian Leybourne]

Another point to note is that a CP of 18 is exceptionally good. Exceptionally. With that kind of CP, you SHOULD be able to do nasty nasty things in combat because you're the uber-rapier man.

Without SA's, that's a hard CP to get to. With SA's, it's possible, in which case you have several SA's firing and again, you should be extremely good because the battle is obviously very important to you.

Brian.

[kidar]

Another point to note is that a CP of 18 is exceptionally good. Exceptionally. With that kind of CP, you SHOULD be able to do nasty nasty things in combat because you're the uber-rapier man.

Firstly, with Spiritual Attributes CP of 18 isnt that huge.. or is it?
Secondly, yeah, you are the uber-rapier man, but so is your opponent (in this case).


kiD

[Ashren Va'Hale]

18 is always huge, however the duff you got there.

That doesnt change my points though, especially if the opponent has a cp of 18. Thats 18 of his dice that you have to totally account for in your attack else he spikes you hard core with his remaining dice.  so, you spend 6 to pay the activation cost, then you pay 3 to raise his TN, then you roll and should win, then you roll your remaing 9 dice in an attack. Lets say at TN 5, 50% succeed, round down, thats 4 successes, the mug is wearing chain, that removes the damage value of the 4 successes, leaving damage at st+3, in this case you didn't specify str, lets say average at 4, thats 7 damage. subtract toughness, also not specified, lets say 4 again, thats a level 3 wound. Not fatal. in fact, it could be really bad for you, say on the 1d6 you roll a 3-6 on zone XII, that reads Deep but survivable, wound hits deep but misses any internal organs. Shock 7, pain 8 - WP. With a WP of 5, that makes the shock rating higher, you apply that and that leaves your opponent with 11 dice to kick the living crap out of you. Congrats, you are now most likely dead. DEAD DEAD DEAD.

Does that help illustrate what I meant by a gamble that might not always pay off but could cost big?

[Ingenious]

My uber-rapier guy, as shown in my post of my sample character.
His normal CP is 15.. as high as a starting character can get. (Reflex + proficiency) Starting reflex can be no higher than 7, even if AG is 8 and Wit is 7.. that's still reflex of 7. and proficiencies can never be higher than 8 at the start(with proficiencies at priority A).

This is pretty damned impressive in a duel, or other light-combat..with light weapons. With a case of rapiers his TN to block said light weapons is 5. Anything heavier like say a maul, halberd, etc... would be harder to block, hence the higher TN.
So.. it would be particularly foolish for this character to be doing a pre-emptive strike against anyone other than someone with a light weapon...
and to minimize the risk of being attacked.
Hypothetical situation against another rapier man of equal skill:
I declare defense and then do a pre-emptive strike knowing that the opponent has thrown red and is going to attack... during my pre-emptive strike I pay additional dice in order to do a simultaneous block/strike, and furthermore have to divide up my combat pool in order for it to be effective.
So that can help a bit with being caught with the pants down on the receiving end of a pre-emptive strike, also when doing one.

-Ingenious

[Brian Leybourne]

Firstly, with Spiritual Attributes CP of 18 isnt that huge.. or is it?

Did you actually read my message?

Secondly, yeah, you are the uber-rapier man, but so is your opponent (in this case).

Yes, but the point was that what's being mentioned in this example is possible to either party, but wouldn't be possible to either party if their CP's were lower (which they usually probably would be). This is an extreme and unusual case, hardly a breakpoint for the system.

Brian.