[Tom, Dick, and Mary] A game of moral debate for three

[Tim Alexander]

Hey Folks,

I'm still rolling Devout around in my head, but this little guy has been banging around for a bit and wanted out. Paul's Valedictorian's Death, and MLwM have influenced it pretty heavily. In addition, Legends of Alyria was the inspiration for the trait declarations. Basically I was playing around with the concept of keeping the roles static in a game, so Tom, Dick, and Mary are always pretty much the same except for flavor. At the same time I wanted something that still had repeatable appeal. The system is still pretty wonky, there's a lot to work out, so I'd be interested in hearing suggestions of how best to tighten it up. Specifically I'm worried that how you play just doesn't quite come across. I'm aware that the limitation of exactly three players is pretty restrictive, and I'd also be interested in some creative way of getting around that without losing the overall feel.

Summary: Each of the players picks a role, which are shorthanded by the monikers Tom, Dick, and Mary. The chosen role describes the player's position in the contest and may be roughly described as Tom, the Redeemer; Dick, the Deceiver; and Mary, the Hero. During the course of play Tom and Dick will vie for the approval of Mary, who will serve as arbiter of the primary conflict; known as The Choice. This debate is carried out through the vehicle of story creation, and will be decided via the character of Mary, and how her story answers The Choice.

Preplay: Each of the players chooses a role, knowing that in general Tom is the positive influence, Dick is the negative influence, and Mary is the arbiter. Once chosen, Mary's player has the resposibility of defining The Choice. Input from the other players is welcome, but in the end it is Mary's player who has the final say. The Choice should be an explicit, and generally moral, question. It's also useful to determine who the character Mary is before The Choice is determined. This can include issues of setting, time period, other characters, and in some cases will give strong indications of who Tom and Dick are in the scenario.

Frex:

Mary is a secretary for an American advertising firm in the 1950's. She's motivated, ambitious, and intelligent, but severely restricted by the heavy discrimination shown to women. Her boss has been making advances on her and has alluded to the idea that she might receive promotion if she puts out.

The Choice: "Will Mary sleep with her boss?"

In the above case, Dick is likely to be Mary's boss, though that's entirely up to Dick's player. Mary's player has gone a long way towards defining the setting the game will take place in, as well as giving us a picture of Mary as a person. It's important to remember that all the players have input into this process, and that only on The Choice does Mary's player have supreme say. If Tom's player was violently opposed to the fifties as a setting period, some accord would need to be worked out among the players before play could begin. In summary, Mary's player determines what's at stake, but all the players must agree on the playing field.

Once The Choice is set, the players determine what character will represent them in the scenario. In some cases this is somewhat determined, as is the case with Dick's choice of Mary's boss in the above example, but in others characters will be created to fit into the defined scenario. The player of each of the characters then picks four traits from the following options:

Tom (Meek,Humble,Generous,Kind,Forgiving,Courteous,Honest)
Dick (Arrogant,Deceptive,Controlling,Ambitious,Uncaring,Lascivious Violent)
Mary (pick two from Tom's and two from Dick's)

In addition, each player takes three tokens each. These tokens will be used to exert a variety of control on the game, and can be refreshed as the story progresses. Once this is done, and everyone has a good feel for the playing field and the participants, play begins.

Gameplay: Players take turns creating scenes in the story, beginning with Mary's player, with the next player determined by a coin flip and continuing in that order. Scenes must always include the character of at least one other player, but may include all three. Involving other players in a scene follow the following rules:

1) Mary's player may involve Tom, Dick, or both Tom and Dick.
2) Tom may involve Mary, and may involve Dick at the cost of a token.
3) Dick may involve Mary, and may involve Tom at the cost of a token.
4) Tom or Dick may involve themselves in a scene for the cost of a token.

The player may frame the scene as they like, but the framing itself cannot answer The Choice. So, in the above example, Dick could not simply frame himself in bed with Mary. However, he could frame them working late in the office alone, leaving the possibility of an encounter open. Once framed, a scene progresses until Mary's player calls for an end.

During a scene, the following may occur:

1) Tom's or Dick's player may overtly play to one of their chosen traits in order to regain a token, up to the maximum of three.
2) Tom's or Dick's player may expend a token to assume control of their opponent in order to describe the use of one of their chosen traits.
3) Tom's or Dick's player may give a token to Mary in order to describe the use of one of her chosen traits
5) Mary may call an end to the scene.

If a player wishes to block the use of a token, each player takes a number of tokens into their hand secretly. On the count of three, both players drop their tokens and the highest total wins.

Winning the Game: At the end of each scene a vote is taken to determine whether or not The Choice has been answered. If two players agree that it has, and they agree on the answer to The Choice, then the game is over. Laurels are given to either Tom's or Dick's player, depending on who successfully convinced Mary.

Questions? Comments?

-Tim

[Michael S. Miller]

Very interesting, Tim. Reminds me a good deal of my game Discernment, coming soon in the No-Press Anthology. Discussion of that is available HERE.

My first impressions are:

1) Mary is only able to spend tokens to block the other two from taking over her character.

2) Mary can never win the game, although she always decides who wins. This may be what you're aiming for. I did that as well in my first version of Discernment, where the Subject will lose sooner or later, but I like the spice of the competion that victory conditions for both sides add.

3) As long as you have Archetypes (Tom the Redeemer & Dick the Deceiver) you might want to allow them to portray multiple characters that fit their Archetype. Particularly if you want each Choice to last more than a scene or two. In your example, Tom can be the old lady in the park feedin tthe pigeons, who tells Mary how her boss took advantage of her, then fired her. Dick can be the wife of the company president, who has slept her way to wealth.

4) Here's the same advice Paul Czege gave me: Give it a setting. I resisted at first, but give it a try. You basically have a woman with an angel and a devil on her shoulders. Maybe use the setting that Tom & Dick are sent from person to person to try to save/corrupt their soul. But what's interesting, is that once I added just a hint of setting to Discernment, lots of other problems I was having with the game (like the victory conditions I mentioned) seemed to solve themselves.

[Tim Alexander]

Hey Michael,

Thanks for the reply, this is a lot of help. You're right about it being reminiscent of Discernment, I'd guess it's from the shared Valedictorian's Death influence. I really like Discernment BTW, I hadn't looked at it previously, but it's a really neat game

1) Mary is only able to spend tokens to block the other two from taking over her character.

2) Mary can never win the game, although she always decides who wins. This may be what you're aiming for. I did that as well in my first version of Discernment, where the Subject will lose sooner or later, but I like the spice of the competion that victory conditions for both sides add.

Yeah, Mary not being part of the competition was part of the initial idea, but I'm certainly worried about her then being somewhat less interesting a choice for whoever plays her. Unfortunately I'm having trouble figuring out a win condition for her.

3) As long as you have Archetypes (Tom the Redeemer & Dick the Deceiver) you might want to allow them to portray multiple characters that fit their Archetype. Particularly if you want each Choice to last more than a scene or two. In your example, Tom can be the old lady in the park feedin tthe pigeons, who tells Mary how her boss took advantage of her, then fired her. Dick can be the wife of the company president, who has slept her way to wealth.

This was part of the initial concept, and then I pulled it back a bit to maintain the Tom/Dick gimmick. I think you're right though, it's too incestuous a story otherwise that won't last long. It needs to go back in.

4) Here's the same advice Paul Czege gave me: Give it a setting. I resisted at first, but give it a try. You basically have a woman with an angel and a devil on her shoulders. Maybe use the setting that Tom & Dick are sent from person to person to try to save/corrupt their soul. But what's interesting, is that once I added just a hint of setting to Discernment, lots of other problems I was having with the game (like the victory conditions I mentioned) seemed to solve themselves.

Huh, now that's interesting. I'll have to mull the idea around of a more coherent setting. Certainly the angel/devil thing is prevalent, and there's definitely a distinctly one sided morality in place. Can you give me an idea of something that fell into place for you after adding the setting? I'm assuming that you mean the Alien bent that Discernment took on, correct?

Thanks again,

-Tim

[Michael S. Miller]

Huh, now that's interesting. I'll have to mull the idea around of a more coherent setting. Certainly the angel/devil thing is prevalent, and there's definitely a distinctly one sided morality in place. Can you give me an idea of something that fell into place for you after adding the setting? I'm assuming that you mean the Alien bent that Discernment took on, correct?

Well, those cool little icons about the three levels of reality & fantasy came from the setting, as did the victory conditions for the Subject (the entire concept of Awaremess--without the setting, there was nothing for the Subject to become Aware of). Because of Awareness, the Scholars and the Subject have some reason to spend coins, rather than just narrative.

In your game, perhaps Mary wins if her soul is saved (that is, she makes the decision Tom wants her to) but she doesn't know which other player is Tom or Dick. Maybe Tom must always tell the truth, while Dick is free to say anything he wants? Perhaps Tom & Dick's orders come from their respective Powers That Be, so Mary won't necessarily know what the "right thing to do" is. But how to acheive this with only three players? Have each player write down 3 potential ways Mary could make The Choice, then Tom & Dick each pick from a hat.

Of course, that makes the Powers That Be kinda arbitrary. And even if the Powers have a grand, ineffable plan, that makes the game less about morality of ends and more about propriety of means. SO maybe that's the not the way to go.... I'm just riffing off your idea, Tim. Maybe a setting won't work for TD&M, but I suggest you try it yourself. You'll know whether it's right or not.

[Gwen]

Me and my friends used to plan an old game, sort of along the same lines.

Instead of there being two influences, there were three:  The Id, The Ego, and the Super-Ego.

What do you do if more than three people want to play the game?

[Tim Alexander]

Hey Again,

Michael: I've got to mill over setting concepts and win condition possibilities for Mary. I rather like the idea that she's trying to figure out who Tom is and who Dick is, though I'm not really certain how to make that work. I also have a gut aversion to the idea of a shared win for Mary and Tom (or Mary and Dick for that matter) since it invites collusion. The fact that your Awareness came explicitly from setting certainly goes a long way towards convincing me I need to take a good hard look at a firmer setting as a possibility.

Gwen: Well, as it stands, if you've got more than three (or less) you don't play Tom, Dick, and Mary. It's sort of a conceit of the game, which definitely limits it's scope. The dual nature of The Choice, as well as the good and evil bent of the game restricts it. Do you feel like it really cripples its appeal?

-Tim

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Tim,

Check out Everyone is John and My Love for You is Way Out of Line, as well as Paul's actual play thread about playing the latter, It was a double shot of my baby's love.

Best,
Ron

[Tim Alexander]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for the links Ron, there's a lot of neat stuff in there. All of this has been quite helpful and I think some refinements are wriggling their way out. Currently I'm thinking:

-Mary's player will define the setting as well as a series of obstacles currently facing Mary.
-Tom and Dick will figure out The Choice privately between them from amongst the obstacles. The concept being a gentleman's bet between devil and angel for Mary's soul.
- During play, Tom and Dick try to coax Mary into making their choice while Mary tries to figure out on which choice does her soul ride. Somehow figuring out what the bet is will let her have some impact, giving her a win condition. This is really still the sticking point, but I feel a step or two closer.

The above of course doesn't quite fit, though it's shaping into something. I'll need to do a bit of revamping of how the tokens work, but that was coming anyway.

I appreciate the help, and of course am still open for input,

-Tim

[Tim C Koppang]

Gwen: Well, as it stands, if you've got more than three (or less) you don't play Tom, Dick, and Mary. It's sort of a conceit of the game, which definitely limits it's scope.

I don't think you necessarily have to limit the game to three players.  The obvious solution is to allow more than one Tom or Dick.  To avoid creating a lopsided contest, you might want to expand the limit of three to a limit of some odd number of players.  For example, if you have five, there's one Mary, two Toms, and two Dicks.

The other alternative I can think of involves multiple Marys and a complication on the scene framing rules.  You could do it, but I'm more interested to know how steadfast you are about the limit of three before I write any more.

[Tim Alexander]

The other alternative I can think of involves multiple Marys and a complication on the scene framing rules.  You could do it, but I'm more interested to know how steadfast you are about the limit of three before I write any more.

Let's say that at the moment I'm resistent. This is mainly because I'm having trouble seeing how one could add Toms, Dicks, or Marys, and keep the feel of the game. I think right now one of the nice things about it is the devil on your shoulder feel that Michael mentions above, and I'd like to keep that. That said, if the feel of the game could be preserved I wouldn't be opposed to adding more players.

-Tim