Interrogations

[Sammael99]

Hi all !

Following Burning Wheel's nomination for an outie, I have become interested in this system, and I had a few questions :

- I've read various reviews, but none of them gave an appreciation of how combat handled itself. By this I mean that they explained how it worked mechanically but not how it worked in play. In particular, I was wondering how long combat took on average, and how much winging was required from the GM.

- In another thread here, I noticed that the game could be sent abroad for $15. Is there any possibility of using Global Priority at $10 ?

Thanks in advance for any replies !

Ben, FRANCE

[Luke]

Hi Ben,

Let me see if I can address the "combat question". Rumor has it that someone has compared BW combat to DnD. GAH! NO! I think the idea there is that BW is no more complicated than that staple, popular game that many many people play.

What you are going to find with BW, is that is it straight up different. Different is scary. Many people take a read through the BW combat system and assume it takes ferever, cause you have to write stuff down!
It's not true, experience has born out just the opposite. Combat actually speeds up as you get the hang of it, and the level of drama injected by the system enhances the experience overall, IMO. (take this all with a grain of salt, BW and I are very close!)

In play combat can be resolved in two ways, first is just simple, "What do you do?/Make a skill test" type way. " We often use this very simple method when two equally matched opponents want to take a few swings at each other, but the success/results are not critical to moving the game forward.

The much more fun (and gratifying) is to use the method described in the book and write out "scripts" of your character's actions. What you are doing is just planning ahead, if you want to change an action, you just pay for it with another action. All actions happen simultaneously in each "volley", so move and countermoves are played off against each other -- each player tries to build a series of moves that will defend his ass while at the same time create an opening for him to best his opponent.

http://www.burningwheel.org/pdf/BW_scriptsheeet_r3.pdf
Here is a link to the new script sheet that Pete mentioned. As you can see, you just check off what you want to do. Using this sheet, scripting takes a less than a minute.

BW combat is designed to simulate the chaos, uncertainty and deadly nature of the fray. Something that is altogether missing from most fantasy rpgs.

In the game, the scripting system is supported by the Steel and Physical Tolerances mechanics. All too often, pain from a blow will be overwhelming and will send the character either to the ground or running for his life.

Ah, so fun! So gritty!

::phew::
that's a lot to chew on. I hope i haven't said too much.
thanks for your interest!
-Luke

[xiombarg]

It's not true, experience has born out just the opposite. Combat actually speeds up as you get the hang of it, and the level of drama injected by the system enhances the experience overall, IMO. (take this all with a grain of salt, BW and I are very close!)

On the grain of salt end of things, as a quick aside, I've seen the "it's fast when you get used to it" said about every RPG combat system with any amount of crunch -- including Deadlands and Rolemaster. So I'd be careful about such declarations.

On the other hand, in the interests of full disclosure I'll note I haven't tried out Burning Wheel's combat system yet. (Wandering even further off-topic, the bit that gives me pause is the skill increase system.)

[Lxndr]

Which leads to the question:

how many pieces of paper are used up in the average combat?  session?

[rafial]

Here's some hard numbers on a combat I ran.

Four fairly new players.  It was my (GMs) third combat, one player's second, and the very first time for the other two.  There were three player controlled characters, a fairly experienced watch commander with a sword, and two run of the mill guards with spears, all in light armor, versus six unarmored thugs, with mix of knives, clubs, fists, and hurled rocks.  The players used the new scripting checklist that Luke linked to in this thread, I used a piece of scratch paper with a matrix on it to run my six guys.

Total real time for this combat was just over a hour, for a combat that lasted 4 exchanges (12 volleys) of game time.  Final result was the guardsmen victorous, the watch commander losing his helmet and one guardsman receiving a superficial wound.  Three of the thugs ran off, two due to wounds sustained and the last (the rock thrower) when he realized the tide was turning.  One thug fainted after receiving a light wound, one went down with a fairly bad sword wound to the shoulder (the only possible casualty), and the last was wrestled down and subdued without injury.

The largest slow down on play was our unfamiliarity with the various manuevers, thus requiring frequent lookups to determine what to roll and how to read the results.  I'm guessing with a group that had memorized most of the manuevers, a similar combat would run in half the time or better.

[taepoong]

Which leads to the question:

how many pieces of paper are used up in the average combat?  session?

I'm telling ya, with a new script sheet sheathed in lamination and a handy dry-erase marker, the total use of paper is zero. Of course, that means you erase the old exchange with your thumb or something. So, I guess you need to use at least one tissue or sheet of paper towel! :o)

[Lxndr]

Hrm.  Hadn't thought of laminating them.
Where could I go to get that done?

[taepoong]

I used Kinko's.

[Sammael99]

Hi Ben,

Let me see if I can address the "combat question". Rumor has it that someone has compared BW combat to DnD. GAH! NO! I think the idea there is that BW is no more complicated than that staple, popular game that many many people play.

It was me who asked the question on rpg.net as well, and to be fair, the original poster didn't actually make the comparison as such but pointed out that combat was roughly of the same length.

Before I elaborate on the reasons behind this specific query, maybe a little background would help : My second son has was born recently and I have therefore not been rping for a while. As with any period in my life when I don't roleplay for a significant time, I have campaign ideas running around my head all the time, and that usually ends up in a homebrew.

When my previous son was born three years ago, I ended up designing a whole campaign setting for the recently released D&D3E. However, after two years of running that campaign, I folded specifically because I couldn't stand how long combat took anymore. With an average playing time per session of 4 hours at best and a frequency of twice a month at best, combats above one hour in a session usually means that nothing else significant gets done.

I now have tons of ideas for a new homebrew, but I need to find a system to accomodate it, and one of my requirements is specifically that combat should be swift.

So the fact that combat feels different is fine and a great bonus, but the fact that it's swift is a requirement !

[Sammael99]

Here's some hard numbers on a combat I ran.

Four fairly new players.  It was my (GMs) third combat, one player's second, and the very first time for the other two.  There were three player controlled characters, a fairly experienced watch commander with a sword, and two run of the mill guards with spears, all in light armor, versus six unarmored thugs, with mix of knives, clubs, fists, and hurled rocks.  The players used the new scripting checklist that Luke linked to in this thread, I used a piece of scratch paper with a matrix on it to run my six guys.

Total real time for this combat was just over a hour, for a combat that lasted 4 exchanges (12 volleys) of game time.  Final result was the guardsmen victorous, the watch commander losing his helmet and one guardsman receiving a superficial wound.  Three of the thugs ran off, two due to wounds sustained and the last (the rock thrower) when he realized the tide was turning.  One thug fainted after receiving a light wound, one went down with a fairly bad sword wound to the shoulder (the only possible casualty), and the last was wrestled down and subdued without injury.

The largest slow down on play was our unfamiliarity with the various manuevers, thus requiring frequent lookups to determine what to roll and how to read the results.  I'm guessing with a group that had memorized most of the manuevers, a similar combat would run in half the time or better.

Hey Rafial,

Thanks for this very specific info. I'll check out the sheet as well, my IE doesn't handle embedded pdfs well, so i'll have to download it.

[Luke]

personally, i adore scripting. however, if you really can't get past it, i did write up an alternate system for melee. This system reduces the combat to a single opposed skill test. It takes out some of the flavor and desperation, but it is definitely faster.

http://www.burningwheel.org/pdf/gangwar_mook_mech.pdf

-Luke

[Sammael99]

OK. So I've been sold. My money's out, the package is on its way.

I'll comment in a few weeks to say if I've been converted !

;)