My Game: Tactiturn

[Mouse]

I'm in the middle of completing a game system that's based around realism (at least on the non-fiction part of it).  I've been out of touch with the latest RPG's, so before I release it as a novel idea, I would greatly appreciate some feedback.

Where the game is played, the history of the world and everything isn't really all that important, so I'll skip that.  What I needed feedback on is the damage mechanisms.  From what I can tell and remember, even computer RPG's, is seems like everything is still hit-point based to some extent.  In some cases, even some sort of numerical value for manna or whatever to cast magic.  Based upon 9 or so attributes, my system uses actual health of the characters.  You couldn't defend or parry that orc's club blow?  then after some checks you may or may not land that heavy bruise on your upper left arm.  Eventually after a lengthy battle, one may end up with gashes, cuts, and bleeding wounds in various locations.  They player may still be alive, but there isn't a numerical heath hit-point list that reflects the condition of the player.  Instead, players record their wounds and locations and the agony (pain and discomfort) level that each induces.  Untreated wounds bleed more and cause greater agony, and lengthy battles add to fatigue etc.  

Let me step back some more.  All actions in the game are either mental or physical.  In such, every action will incur either mental fatigue or physical fatigue depending on how severe the action is and for the duration.  Mental actions could include studying, mediating, casting spells and to a lesser degree, picking locks, etc; anything requiring concentration in part to any degree.   Physical actions are attacking, bashing, running, dodging, etc, in part picking locks as well.  Not getting into how magic is run in this game, let's just look at physical combat.

In physical combat, weapons are broken into one of the three damage mechanisms:  blunt, pierce, and slash (which is really both blunt and pierce).  Blunt weapons will bruise and crush bones, but unless contain spikes etc will not usually induce bleeding.  Piercing weapons will definite puncture the body and cause bleeding, but not cause a lot of bruising (though the likelihood of damaging internal organs is greater).   Slashing weapons may not pierce or cut as deeply as strictly as piercing weapons, but will also cause some blunt damage as well.  

Based upon one's strength and the weapon they are using, a severity factor is derived.  Successful attacks that managed to pass the target's armor are conveyed into terms of bodily injury.  The player's body location is determined, and based upon the remaining severity factor of the attack and the damage mechanism; players may result in any combination of injuries unique to that location.  In addition, an agony level is associated with the wound as well as possible bleeding.  The only thing recorded is the location of the wound, and the corresponding details to the damage (including agony and any penalties, such as reduced movement for torn muscles, broken bones, etc, increased fatigue, etc).  At the end of a combat, the player may or may not have a variety of wounds, but over the course of days and weeks of adventuring, they may have collected several injuries.  Untreated wounds and open bleeding then poses serious threat to the character's overall health as hours and days pass.  The player's agony level may go up or down depending if the wounds are treated, and ultimately, the player may die from a high level of agony, which a reflection of the wounds they carry.  Resting helps heal the wounds, but in real time reflection, so unless one finds that priest in that town (which can cast "prayers" on the player to heal them), they may have to wait 2 months before that broken leg can set and heal.

Once again, actions incur fatigue, so a player can only endure so much mental or physical fatigue depending on their attributes.  To much fatigue, and a player passes out or collapses.  Warriors can only swing that sword so many times before there combat performance starts to suffer do to fatigue.  If a mage knows a spell, they will never forget it, but they can only cast it if they can pass a mental fatigue check, otherwise they must rest and let their fatigue levels drop before they may have a better chance of a successful cast.

There's more to it than that, but basically it ends up representing the trauma a character experiences during their adventurers.  Natural healing and resting is done in real time, and thus game play is monitored down to the hour or fractions of a day.  It paces the emphasis back on actual combat, juggling between "do I try and strike him or parry his blow, because my shield's about to fall apart and my mail is in tatters and I really don't feel like loosing my left arm if his strike is the least bit lucky... man I wander what Hilda is cooking for dinner right now, why did I have to go fishing today!?!?"

I can't imagine this is a completely novel idea.  Can anyone help or provide feedback?

[MPOSullivan]

heya Mouse, welcome to the Forge.  (i feel like the wrong person saying that.  Ron, Mike, someone who has been hear longer than me!  say Welcome to this dude!)

okies, that out of the way, let's get down to your damage resolution system.  What you're discribing to me sounds very similar to the system for the Riddle of Steel, a dark fantasy RPG that prides itself on its brutal, realistic combat that doesn't use hit points or wound levels.  Characters in tRoS actually accrue wounds, like a gash in the stomach or a bruise on the eye, and the individual wounds effect the character in pain and blood loss.  these of course make a character less effective and, eventually, dead.  it's a wonderful system and, as a recent convert to it, find myself pimping it a lot these days.  you can get it from Driftwood publishing's website at:  www.TheRiddleOfSteel.net  I would definetly advise checking out this game.  there shoulld even be a free downloadable pdf quickstart of the game that you can use to get yourself aquainted with the system.

(wow, suggesting the Riddle of Steel is becoming some weird mantra now, i'm saying it so much.  i feel like i'm developing a koan.  you guys feel that way too?)

good luck with your design.  look forward to hearing more.

laters

[Mouse]

Hey Z, thanks for the insight.  I knew it could not be a completely novel idea, and though it sounds interesting, I must resist the urge to look at it in detail for fear of muddling my rules were theirs, and to avoid acqusations for robbing from ROS etc.  But soon when mine is wrapped up, I will browse it.  Also, it's how one uses the similar principles that I'd like to expand upon and what may or may not be different than ROS that you mentioned.  

Besides using rules in just normal table top play against other players, the bigger part to the game & world is that that it would actually be as a series of "choose your own adventure" books in which a player can go on solo adventures (even with a group of characters in their party) to seek their own fortune and demise, as the see fit.  This in itself isn't novel either, fo I grew up on Steve Jackson books which were very entertaining to say the least.  Every book would expectedly be a senerio, and players would start one with a cast of characters.  The books would be unique in the sense that no matter the paths the player will chose, the characters will get wounded and some will die.  The characters left over after one book can be used in following books (with new ones added, some may be harder than others, but the only thing gained during each book is items and possible skill increases; there isn't experience points, just addeed skills that can be learned if one survies the book; but a book couldn't be played by the same player twice.  Then, to autenticate the adventure and the characters that survived, the book would have some sort of code for a website that the players can log on and keep track of their progress.  Players can also use the website to play against and challenge each other, possibly going on on-line adventures, but nothing as complex as massivlely online games.  Like the book, they would be text based to say true to the book, with some minor pictures for illustration.  In that regard, I could even skip the book series and do everything online, with possibly only selling some books in bookstores as training missions to get some of the player's characters up to speed, but each book would have a unique loggon for the website.  

Once the first book is out and the rules established with the website, both literery writer as and computer-writers could create and contribute their own stories for others to participate in.  Each person would pay something like a few dollars for every on-line adventure they particpated in, suffering whatever permanent consequences to their characters as they did so.  Once again, the world could be solo played through the different books and group played on-line.

As for a little more detail on the actual world, the world of Tactiturn is based on an extremely large planet, something on the accord of the sun.  Populations are diverse and sparse, with technologies ranging anywhere from our pre-B.C. to the 1500's.  In this dynamic world, the value of truth and facts and the results exploration and discovery are placed above gold and gems.  It is a world little understood by the majority, with a precious few Sages of Knowledge hording information, for knowledge is power.  These sages work with Truth Trekkers, trading fortunes for pages out of their journals after they scour various areas of the land in pursuit of new discoveries and understanding.  Anything not understood in the world is considered magical; which then encompasses the baffling studies of alchemy, powers of nature (druid-types), theological beliefs, physic abilites, and all the other usual orgins for magic.  Actually, that stems more from a novel I was writing, but it eventually phased into a gaming system.

Well, let's just ignore that last paragraph.  Has the choose your own adventure portion tied with a on-line placement for fellow adventurers already been accomplished to?  Thanks for your time...

[Andrew Martin]

I knew it could not be a completely novel idea, and though it sounds interesting, I must resist the urge to look at it in detail for fear of muddling my rules were theirs, and to avoid acqusations for robbing from ROS etc.  But soon when mine is wrapped up, I will browse it.  Also, it's how one uses the similar principles that I'd like to expand upon and what may or may not be different than ROS that you mentioned.

Please read Mike's Rant here:
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=5564
before proceeding anyfurther.

[Mike Holmes]

Yeah, I think that what Andrew is saying (about what I'm saying) is that the idea of damage reducing an appropriate stat came out with TFT - or actually with it's predescessor, Melee. About 1975? Traveller did it, too, pretty early on.

In Huter Logan's article on Damage at RPG.Net (http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/columns/dream19jun03.html) he discusses five ways to account for damage. Reduction in stats is number 2.

Many people say that they want to "stay pure" and not get mixed up in other people's mechanics. The problem is that, if you aren't aware of the range of things out there, it's very likely that what you think is an innovation will turn out to already have been done. So, to avoid reinventing the wheel, get an idea for what's out there. And then create beyond that.


I'm not sure what you mean by "on-line placement" but are you aware of the idea of Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplauing Games (MMPORGs)? How about interactive fiction ala Skotos (www.skotos.com)? These aren't precisely "choose your own adventure" stuff, but there are similarities.

In any case, why do you need a damage system for a "choose your own adventure" sort of game?

Mike

[Mouse]

Thanks Mike and Andrew for your insightful feedback.  I knew that my idea could not have been completely novel, and from the sounds of it, it's almost a quarter century too late.  However, I'm certain that my slant on it will still contain some uniqueness and individuality to some degree.

After reading Hunter Logan's post on the various types of damage assessments, I feel that my system falls into more the 5th type, a combination of 2 and 3 (although from my previous posts it does sound like case 2).  With more detail of how it is approached, you may agree; but without comparing to ROS and previous similar damage mechanisms, I don't know to what extent my approach already exists in another game (but rest assured, I do intend to investigate the others and alleviate my ignorance).  Maybe I should go more into detail in all fairness, for my view on the matter is not simply a direct attribute reduction in a 1:1 sense; ultimately yes, but in an indirect way:

For physical combat, an attacker initiates a strike against a target (either by melee, thrown weapon, whatever).  In all cases, the success of the attacker actually striking their target is merely depended upon the accuracy of their attack.  That's pretty basic I know.  So first, whether or not the strike is on-course or off-course, so to speak, is determined.  Off-course attacks miss the target through no action of the target, a "passive dodging" by the target, not doing anything but still managing to avoid being stuck; this is 100% the attackers fault.  However, most people facing the chance of being stuck will face one of two choices from the attack:  try to move out of the way "assertive dodging"; or get struck.  Targets that elect to dodge decrease the chance of the strike being "on-course", and targets that try to dodge or fail or intentionally get struck, well, get struck.  However, players that intentionally allow themselves to be struck most likely by intercepting the strike with a shield (normally called blocking), or with a weapon (normally called a parry).  Failed blocks, parries, or dodges means the target is being struck in a location that was not under their control, and now physical contact in a less than ideal place has occurred (you'd much rather want your forearm to be struck with that buckler attacked to it than miss the block and have the blow land against your shoulder).  Now that's pretty basic stuff I know, but now we get into some more detail and possible uniqueness:

Once physical contact results, the location is determined (if it was not a controlled location by the target).  Based upon the attributes of the attacker and the weapon they are using, a severity factor is determined for the attack.  Now we look at the area where contact has occurred.  More often than not, the player is wearing armor.  (Like Hunter Logan's view, wearing stronger armors actually makes the target easier to hit when other factors such as character's strength etc, are held constant.  These armors usually come with increasing weight than acts to hinder agility and thus, may slow the target.  But I understand that he what that first sentence of that paragraph actually is referring to being physically hit, that better armor decreases the chance of physical contact against the body that would cause damage.)  Now certain armors are better than others depending on thee type of attack it receives.  All physical attacks can be categorized as blunt damage, pierce or slash (which is blunt and piercing).  Armor development did not universally respond just to absorb damage.  Different designs evolved and catered to receive different types of attacks.   Chain mail is excellent piercing protection, but does little to subtract from the severity of a blunt attack; not like rigid plate mail would.  Also, my game accounts for the fact that the armor at the particular location of impact may absorb some of the severity of the impact for certain damage mechanisms, but may still allow physical damage to the body.  The armor at each location my also have a endurance so to speak, armor points or whatnot, that which the armor will ultimately fail and be useless in that location if exceeded, but it's ability to protect as is was new steadily gets worse with wear and the likelihood of physical harm from the primary damage mechanism increases when the location is struck increases.  More likely than not, every impact will cause some sort of physical harm to the player.  Sword blows whose penetration is prevented by hardened leather over quilt, will still impart the momentum of impact in the form of blunt damage to that body location (so being struck by a heavy sword blow feels to the body like being hit with a moderate club blow instead) .  Once again, a combination of factors is present in which the armor both lessens the primary damage mechanism, helps absorb some of the impact, yet usually still cannot prevent some degree of secondary damage type from occurring to the body.  In fact, the chain mail may be 80% intact and sound in a particular area, but still fail to prevent that lucky arrow strike from penetrating into the flesh of the body; so it's not simply "armor absorbs until destroyed" mantra.

Now that physical bodily contact occurs, the real fun beings.  Based upon the remaining severity of the impact and the damage mechanism being experience and the location of impact, a host of injuries and wounds will result.  Every wound has an associated effect and given an appropriate level of pain and suffering the player endures (simply called Agony from hereon).  The more severe the damage, the greater the agony.  Blunt damage can result in any degree of bruising, crushed and broken bones, compacted muscles and tissue, etc.  Piercing damage may result in punctured organs, torn muscles, ligaments, tendons, etc.  Slashing damage is a combination of both of the latter, usually with a lesser degree of both, but increased likelihood of severing limbs if really the impact is really severe.  So after each round of combat, a player may or may not collect some wounds, which if so are each recorded against that body's location.  Agony is also recorded and totaled from all the wounds of the body (however, how one experiences agony is largely a function of their Mental Endurance attribute, so it's relative).  Most wounds also result in varying degrees of bleeding, which if left untreated, result in more Agony over time (and ultimately may become infected).  Common sense results from the wound also take place.  A compound fracture in the upper arm pretty much makes that arm useless for any actions.  A sprained ankle limits movement and agility, etc.  So here we have an indirect relationship between damage and attribute modification.  However, the game was based around realism, and in such, Agony plays a larger role.  One's Physical endurance is a measure of how much damage a body can endure, relative to body location.  A leg can endure more harm before failing or being severed than a hand or finger; this is strictly strength of material (the body) issue.  One's Mental Endurance is a measure of how much pain and anguish, Agony, one can endure.  This is more a physiological issue.  If the total amount of agony from all the wounds of a player exceeds a level based upon their Mental Endurance, then they could black out or even die.  Physical endurance is also directly related to fatigue, with increased actions from combat resulting in greater fatigue, which leads to a decreasing ability to attack & defend successfully.  The Death Spiral, since Hunter Logan already aptly refers to it as thus, is both a physical demise and mental one.  Players may be weakened from mental and physical fatigue, agony, and just plain bleed to death from the severity of their wounds.

Once again getting back to realism, wounds are healed through time, at a rate comparable to what our bodies to now.  Spells, and bandaging types of skill treatment help stem them wound from worsening, and may help speed the recovery time.  In such, time in the game is logged down to the fraction of the day (several weeks for broken bones, a few hours for that mild concussion, etc).

So how much of that wheel is already going around?  I'm aware of MMPORG's, I'm involved in one currently actually.  The issue with placing this damage mechanism in a book and having it to begin with in a choose-your own adventure book, is simply to make it more fun.  One cannot both be the GM and player at the same time when they are by themselves, so such books bear the burden of the GM to offer a limited sense of RPG's so the reader can become a player.  You can't bring your PC or laptop in a car or airplane for the entire trip for the most part.  Books are still an entertaining and popular outlet (there's still sci-fi fiction in the bookstores isn't there?); and having a book that one can interact more as a RPG, though already done to some extents, I'm sure would still be entertaining and popular.  The Skotos looks interesting, but not entirely what I had in mind.  I was thinking more of people being able to solo play in various books, each one a different scenario, developing their characters (if they survive), and then being able to do likewise in a text-based www. Interaction.  Once again, kind of like Skotos from what I can tell, but not totally.  There'd be an authentication part of it, so players would have to verify their characters and worth through coding only revealed through the book.  Certain outcomes inputted prior to starting an on-line adventure would put a different spin on the computer book when they player with others.

All in all, the book is a side point; the damage mechanism is what I'm interested in and what can be used for normal tabletop RPG play.  Thanks again for all of your time!