The Rhapsody of Eternal: New concept for a vampire game

[Brian Kittrell]

Simply put, it will not put an original spin on anything, as I will not be working on it anymore. :)

As for "stealing" back the mutant idea, feel free; it's your idea, anyway, and I shall not be working on this anymore.

And, as for the comments about how V:tM does not make you look and behave exactly like everyone else in your clan, look at the Nosferatu; they are ALL ugly.  The Brujah have a clan weakness of being angry all the time (or pushy, something of that nature).  Since all of these weaknesses are required, it creates a stereotype which members of these clans must adhere to in some respect.  It seems to be a game designed in the attitude of the designers wanting you to play it their way instead of experimenting on new ground.

A friend has found the very first edition of V:tM and he has asked me to play with him, so I may try that; it seems from what Rich said, it is probably a better game to play for people who are looking for what I am looking for.

That's really all I have to say about it.

[Brian Kittrell]

Also, since White Wolf has written so many books on the different aspects of their vampire game, it would take longer to research the copyrights to ensure no copying was made than to write the damn book.  Another reason not to pursue writing a vamp. game.

[DevP]

Well, a point to be made.

You use the term Storyteller. Its really, really common in games, so no problem there. It's generic, dammit.

You use the term "World of Darkness". I'm sure that's pretty trademarked, it's their branding, etc. so that's one word to stay away from.

But: as for the general ideas in V:tM - there's hardly ANYBODY with the definitive copyright on that! Really.

There's a lot of leeway you can get - there were tons of D&D knock offs back in the day, which were pretty much identical but "Strongfulness" instead of Strength or something like that. (At least, that's what the old-schoolers do say.)

Although names and art (images especially) are copyrighted, the ideas never are, and if we forget that, the terrors have really bloody won. We think you'll have more fun with coming up with novel *ideas* versus the V:tM version, but if I went and copied the tropes behind the WW clans - rename the "Brujah" the "Boo-Yah", etc.  - I'm not violating copyright, and I think they have a weak claim on anything at all.

In fact, if you are NOT versed in V:tM while writing about your own Vampire game, then you have a still stronger defense that you're not copying wholesale - but as I say, I think you'd be largely safe.

The moral of the story: there are essentially NO cases where you should feel that you can't write game X because of fear of stepping intellectual property W, because especially within genres, there are tropes (Elder Vamps, light-sabers) that most everybody will use and reuse.

[Brian Kittrell]

lol for the Penny Arcade link.  I liked that alot, and it does speak a good bit of truth.

I may work on this in the future, but not at this time.  I've come up with something that might be really fun and original to everyone; I did a search on the web earlier and it seems that no one has created a game along these lines as yet, so I may be in luck.

Rather than a game based upon the killing of endless enemies and getting their treasure, I am writing up a demo for a game which is based primarily on solving puzzles in order to progress further into an immersive story.

More on this will come later, but I don't want to give too much away at this time..... :O

[MPOSullivan]

yeah, man, i say go for it.  the first thing that you have to consider in gaming is your fun factor.  if you're having fun designing this game and its setting then just run with it.  you obviously have some ideas for your Orders, and i do agree with you on the Clans insofar as how they have been developed over the various different editions of the game.  

honestly though, don't listen to us, or at least me.  ;-)

make your game, have fun.  don't worry about copyright until you've decided to publish, then you can just pick up a copy of Vapire third, find the copyrights page and adjust accordingly.  

also, the entire World of Darkness line is going the way of the dodo, so maybe you could be the second coming of Mark Rein(dot)Hagen.

laters.

[Ben Morgan]

If I were writing a vampire game, in which the players were playing supernatural, ostensibly immortal creatures, I'd play up the ostensibly immortal angle (I say ostensibly because immortal does not mean unkillable).

V:tM always pushes you to play new vampires. Why? Because they're stuck in the old D&D, linear character advancement scheme. They don't want Elders in the hands of players, because it unbalances the Storyteller's ability to traverse the grand metaplot that the designers have set up for us ("Thank you oh great game designers for this pre-fab world. Lucita is so hot. Anatole is so spooky").

In my mind, the coolest thing about the Highlander TV show was the flashbacks. I'd create a mechanic around that, and use it as the vehicle for character development.

Basic idea of how it works: You have your character, right? He looks about 25, because, well hey, all V:tM characters look about 25. No one knows how old he really is (maybe the player knows). He could really be 28, or 280, 2800, or whatever. It doesn't matter at the beginning, because these details come out during the course of the game. And they come out as a result of the flashback mechanic, which would allow for anything from new skills added to the sheet, to new NPCs the character knows (friends and enemies), to background elements about the character ("Wow, you fought for the South?" "Yeah, we lost").

And because they all develop at roughly the same rate (say you have a rule like "only X flashbacks per session", or it costs points or something), elders are now on fairly equal footing with newbies.

Your character runs across a certain situation where X skill would be handy, like say, being able to land a plane after the pilot bailed out and left you to crash, so roll for Flashback, and Bam! he was a fighter pilot in WWII, flying night misions over Berlin; add Pilot to the sheet.

Or you come across a serial killer that's stirring up trouble in your territory, making it difficult for you to feed. Roll for Flashback, and Bam! That's the work of Marcus so-and-so, your old nemesis from ancient rome that you thought was dead.

The only other thing you'd really need is some sort of method for making sure that flashbacks don't contradict what's come before, or if they do, find a way to explain it.

[In the previous examples, read "Roll for Flashback" as "Invoke Flashback Mechanics", whatever they may be.]

A brief side note on the character sheet: I like to think of the sheet as your character's resume. A resume is not a moment-by-moment accounting of one's entire career, but merely a list of one's achievements and highlights. I don't mention that I worked at McDonald's for 3 years on my resume, and neither should your character have to do so.

This goes back to what I've said many times before (I apologize if I repeat myself): characters don't necessarily have to get more powerful as they go along, they should get more interesting.

-- Ben

[Daniel Solis]

Basic idea of how it works: You have your character, right? He looks about 25, because, well hey, all V:tM characters look about 25. No one knows how old he really is (maybe the player knows). He could really be 28, or 280, 2800, or whatever. It doesn't matter at the beginning, because these details come out during the course of the game. And they come out as a result of the flashback mechanic, which would allow for anything from new skills added to the sheet, to new NPCs the character knows (friends and enemies), to background elements about the character ("Wow, you fought for the South?" "Yeah, we lost").

Speaking as someone who actually has written a full game for the WoD and lived to regret it...

I wrote the "Whispers" mechanic for Zombie: the Coil with this idea in mind, but without the experience to really get across that feeling. The premise is that you're an intelligent zombie in the WoD whose memories have been wiped clean as a result of the trauma of escaping the mortal coil either by yours or someone else's will. "Whispers" are the limit to how high your zombie powers could be, like "Arete" in Mage. They represent your memories of your pre-zombie past. So, how do you gain new whispers?

Unfortunately, I was stumped at that point in the design and took the copout solution: "Role-play your flashbacks to raise your whispers." Bleh. If I were to re-write Z:tC, I'd remove it from the World of Darkness, first of all. Second, I'd redesign Whispers so they do pretty much what Ben has described here. Provide real mechanical incentive to raise Whispers that also create an opportunity for a little character-building soliloquy.

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya Brian,

As someone who has met and talked with several people on this board in real life, I can tell you that they honestly want nothing more than to help you make the best game you can.  They aren't just saying things because they think they are clerver, better than you, trying to keep you out of the market, whatever.  

I'm sure that your game is good.  But a game needs to be both good and different to get noticed and accepted.  I personaly like Heartbreakers, but the people here (me included) want to push designs to be more than that.  We want a new experience, something we had never seen before.  

Let me try to make an example. Wendy's is an excellent fast food joint.  Best food, good prices.  But it's nothing special to see a new one built.  Even if the ingrediants they use were to come strait off the farm and they had the best burger chef in the world working at it.  We've all been to one, nothing new.  But a fast food join that sold Greek cuisine is something new and would, at the very least, generate a lot of interest and discussion.  See what I'm getting at?

No one, not a single person here, would say that you dont have the right to produce the kind of game you wanted.  Even Ron in his heartbreaker articles said he defends the Heartbreaker's right to exist.  But what gets people really jazzed up is a game with a new mechanic, new insight, new theme, or new style that no one has seen before or one that has barely been developed.

I really wish you the best of luck.  Dont give up on designing all together.  Just have the patience to refine your ideas.

Peace,

-Troy

[Brian Kittrell]

Yes, of course; I never thought anyone was trying to be mean or anything like that with their ideas concerning this project.  If anyone was, I didn't take it that way; I take alot of things in stride and as a learning experience rather than an insult, anyway.

Anywho, here's that other thing I have been drawing up some concept writing on, talked about in http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=9330.

I've just been working with the vampire model too much, as it got me quite stressed out and overwhelmed me a bit with the similarities to Whtie Wolf, so I'm gonna try and break some new ground on this other project for a while, as I've seen nothing like it out there as yet, though there may be something similar somewhere.

[Daniel Solis]

One last bit of advice: Ignore anyone who cries, "But that's not what vampires are like!"

[Brian Kittrell]

hehe Indeed, gobi.  That's definitely a good piece of advice.