[Interlock + Fuzion] magic system - Ideas?

[louissan]

Hi all,

I'm glad to participate on these wonderful forums ...though not quite sure whether I should post this here, even though I read the sticky posts ... if I was wrong, please move all this :)

On to what matters...


I'm currently working on a Shadow World conversion (edited by ICE and Eidolon Studios), in which we have been playing for nearly 10 years. We briefly tried a conversion I did to d20, but were not satisfied. As a parallel campaign we had was in CP2020, I proposed myself to try a conversion of Shadow World to a mix of Fuzion and Interlock.
Now, this might not be an **Indie** game design, but I believe I could find some nice insights over here. Frankly, I hope someone would point me to some URL where this all done already ;)

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First off, I'd like to explain that our d10 Interlock/Fuzion is very close to both originals, save for the quick following changes:
- STATS: Mental [INT, WILL, PRE, EMP], Physical [BODY, STR, CON], Agility [DEX, REF, TECH], Special [MOVE, LUCK].
- Derived stats: RUN, SPT, LEAP, SWM, END, SPD, POW

All the rest is basically the same, with STAT+SKILL+d10 versus a target.

Second, I recently fell in love, so to speak, with the way WoTC presented epic magic in their Epic Level Handbook. Needless to say, I was quite surprised of such a good job.

I am now trying to adapt a seed/dynamic system to our new Interlock/Fuzion. Here's how it is so far:

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Seeds are the basic building blocks of how magic is manipulated. They are practical, if not always logical, subdivisions of what can be done magically.
Here are the seeds (straight out from a jpeg found on STUDIO187's web site):
- banishment
- blessing
- concealing
- contacting
- controlling
- corruption
- creation
- cursing
- destruction
- dispelling
- divination
- element: (element)
- enchantment
- evocation
- healing
- illusion
- knowledge
- manipulation
- mentalism
- movement
- nature
- necromancy
- perceiving
- protection
- revealing
- summoning
- transformation
(Most of their names are self-explanatory, I believe, or close)

Each seed can be used to create a dynamical spell effect the caster decides on. Hence, no spell list that can be long to maintain, not to mention create.
Seeds all have basic parameters, ie, values for range, numbe of targets, etc. They also ALL have a base DV, that has to be beaten in order to cast a spell effect. Here they are:

• Statistic: indicates the stastistic used by the spell effect caster upon casting.
• DV: indicates the base DV for an effect generated with the seed. Several possibilities are given in the seed description can translate into several different base DVs.
• Target: indicates the spell effect's target type(s) and their basic number/quantity.
• Casting time: indicates the casting duration category. See below for more details.
• Range: indicates the range category for effects generated using the seed.
• Duration: indicates the duration category for effects generated using the seed.
• Specific factors: describe factors unique to the seed.

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A caster can choose to boost or weaken a spell effect, though always at a cost. In order to do so, he can switch the basic value of a seed's parameter along the parameter gauge, thus lowering of increasing the DV.

Here are the gauges:

Casting time
Casting time is the time needed for a caster to prepare a spell effect, and then cast it. Most spell effects require at least one round to be cast. The table below lists the categories of casting times.
Category..........Casting time.....DV value
Instantaneous...1 action............2
Very short.........1 round............1
Short................2 rounds..........1
Medium............3 rounds...........1
Long.................5 rounds..........1
Very long..........10 rounds.........2
Extreme............20 rounds.........3

Range
Range is the basic range that a seed possesses. It can be increased, or decreased, in depending on the caster's needs at the time of casting.
Category...........Range.............DV value
Self...................Self................2
Touch................Touch.............1
Very short.........2 meters..........1
Short.................5 meters.........1
Medium.............10 meters........1
Long..................50 meters.......1
Very long...........100 meters......1
Extreme.............1 kilometer.....2

Duration
Duration is a spell effect's duration. It can also be increased or decreased, depending on the caster's needs at the time of casting.
Category............Duration........DV value
Instantaneous.....none..............2
Very short..........3 rounds.........1
Short.................1 minute..........1
Medium..............10 minutes.......1
Long..................1 hour.............1
Very long...........10 hours..........1
Extreme.............1 day..............2
Permanent..........Permanent......3

There are other gauges, but I think those are the most evident.

EXAMPLE
Let's say the Mentalism seed has a static basic DV of 14 (an average action under the Fuzion system), hence, not dependent on the target's statistics (simpler). A caster wants to use it to read a target's surface thoughts.
The base casting time for the seed is Very Short
The base range is Short
The base duration is Medium.

1) The caster realizes he will not be able to approach the target. He then chooses to increases the spell effect's range to Long, thus raising range DV by 2. This increases the final DV to 16.
2) the caster has no time to lose, and chooses to cast the spell as a simple action, thus from Very short to Instantaneous. This costs 2DV, raising the final DV to 16.


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I humbly think the system is pretty. However, I start having problems when a caster wants to increase a DV by 10 or more ... easy to do when you think that moving up the gauges is cumulative. That can of course be counterbalanced by a longer casting time, but this should get quickly boring.
Say the best seed master around has STAT 10 + skill 10; even she would not be able to raise the basic seed parameters without reaching a monster-like DV. Maybe a solution would be to apply only the highest-cost modification ... but this would lead to abuse by players ;)


Any idea, critics, would be most welcome :)


Louissan

[Mike Holmes]

Hi Louissan, welcome to the weird world of The Forge.

As it happens, I'm currently in the process of writing up a conversion of Shadow World to Hero Quest. Have you looked at that system at all? The reason I bring it up is that it handled the conversion very easily (the only "problem" I'm having is that converting the hundreds of species and homelands - all of which doesn't really have to be done - is too fun). One of the reasons that it does so is that the system is "Effects First". But then the same thing can be said of Fuzion's parent system Hero System (not to be confused with HQ).

My question would be why not just go to Hero System for the magic? What you have can be accomplished with that system with ease, and in a manner that uses a tight rule system. What you have, I'm afraid, opens up more problems than it solves (seems to smack of D20 as well - why would you keep those elements?)

Further, what you're building doesn't match Shadow World's magic. I'm not saying that it's a great system, but if you're using SW, then why not keep the magic similar (three realms and all)? Or, rather, if you're going to change things, then why not use a homebrew setting? SW isn't much without it's magic - where's the entry for use of the Unlife, for instance?

Mike

[louissan]

Hi and thanks for your feedback :)


As it goes, no, I have not been able to get a glimpse on the HQ system. For good or ill, I suppose ;)

Yes, converting the races and species in SW is a lot of work, but one I do with pleasure, too.

I've never played the Hero system, and nor have my players who in fact are more important than I - I want to please them. The Intelock system they are very familiar with, and a little Fuzion injection will certainly be painless. Also, I'm a game design freak, so .. uh.. well, I like doing that sort of things :)

The only problem I see with this system is the accumulation of DV increases, which might lead to undoable magical effects (DV 45 anyone?). It does NOT smack of d20, at least not when I chose the only part of d20 that I liked, and then again in a very optional set of rules. I like the principle of being able to cast spells on the fly, without any pre-defined spell definitions, and I profoundly dislike "spell lists" and "spell levels" concepts. A bit "à la" Mage by White Wolf ... even if it involves a little calculation.
It's a skill-based magic system, where the power of a spell-user depends on his skill. How better to express it in a (thank god) levelless system?

About the match of Kulthea's magic:
you surely remember that combat styles/martial arts in Interlock are expressed in terms of bonuses/maluses to various manoeuvres, like kick, punch, grapple or choke? In the same manner, a particular realm of magic could grant bonuses or plain access to a particular seed.
For example (out of the blue, really, I haven't drawn those tables yet) :

Channeling
Access to seed A, C, D, F, G and H
+2 Bonus: C
+1 Bonus: A, D
+0 bonus: G, H
-1 malus: F

For instance, an Essence spell user surely would never have access to the Mentalism seed. It would be the same for an Unlife user with the, say, Healing seed.
In that way, it is also possible to define far more flexible 'schools of magic', such as particular trainings given to Loremasters or Navigators (to name the most famous of them). Priests Arnark could also benefit from bonuses to the Corruption and Concealing seeds, for example.
Just like Martial arts in Interlock, realms of power/schools of magic would have inherent strengths and weaknesses. And, as a side note, easily recorded on a player character's sheet.

I also make ALL characters being part of a RM realm of power (Essence, Channeling, Mentalism), from which they can never part, be they able to cast spells of not. Rolemaster does the same with non-spell users.


Still after critics and remarks :)


Cheers,
Louissan

Hi Louissan, welcome to the weird world of The Forge.

As it happens, I'm currently in the process of writing up a conversion of Shadow World to Hero Quest. Have you looked at that system at all? The reason I bring it up is that it handled the conversion very easily (the only "problem" I'm having is that converting the hundreds of species and homelands - all of which doesn't really have to be done - is too fun). One of the reasons that it does so is that the system is "Effects First". But then the same thing can be said of Fuzion's parent system Hero System (not to be confused with HQ).

My question would be why not just go to Hero System for the magic? What you have can be accomplished with that system with ease, and in a manner that uses a tight rule system. What you have, I'm afraid, opens up more problems than it solves (seems to smack of D20 as well - why would you keep those elements?)

Further, what you're building doesn't match Shadow World's magic. I'm not saying that it's a great system, but if you're using SW, then why not keep the magic similar (three realms and all)? Or, rather, if you're going to change things, then why not use a homebrew setting? SW isn't much without it's magic - where's the entry for use of the Unlife, for instance?

Mike

[louissan]

I'm confused. The list of spheres was from Atomik Magic, and not STUDiO187.
Apologies :)

[ADGBoss]

Also you might want to check out one of the Versions of Champions (Champions: New Millenium) which many champions fans treat with the same disdain as many Original Battlestar Galactica fans treat Galactica: 1980.

It used a version of the Fuzion rules and I am sure had rules for using Magic.  I do not have a copy anymore nor do I have any good links to provide.  Though I sure if you google it you can find some good stuff.

Sean

[Mike Holmes]

Hmmm. When I say it's like D&D, the seeds are reminiscent of how D&D spells are divided up (in fact, had "abjuration" been on the list it would have been a sure thing), and the "seed effects," dureation, range, etc. are a lot like D&D spells. Interestingly, in both the RM spell lists things like range vary with the power level of spells - in many cases that's the only thing that changes (Lighning Bolt, Lightning Bolt 300'). The systems suggested - Fuzion Champions, Hero System - have rules for scaling these things that would match the RM concept without having to have the spell list.


I think that Mike's Standard Rant #1: Game Designers Know Your Hobby applies in this case. Basically, I understand that you want to make your own system, and that's laudable. But what you're coming up with has been done before, and better. I understand that you're just making this for your friends, but you want it to be the best game that it can be, right? If you want to make a superior game, then find out what exists, and improve on it.

Or just use what already exists. You may be interested to know that the systems that we're suggesting are very much toolkits that you can redefine to match your vision. I could very easily reproduce what you have so far with Hero System, for instance. But it would relate back to the original system in a more balanced fashion.

Any other critique that I could give at this point would just be suggestions improving the game that will make it more like one of the suggested systems. I think that others will be hard pressed to do any better than such a suggestion. Not that I'm saying they shouldn't try and chime in with ideas here. Just that I'll be surprised if you get a lot more feedback on the subject that isn't in the form of "hey, look at system X".

I'm not sure if this sounds harsh or not. But I mean well, and hope that you get what you need.

Mike

[Ben Lehman]

Hey.

About six or seven years ago, I wrote up the beginnings of a magic system for Cyberpunk, with an eye towards running creepy-mystical games (think Silent Mobius, not Shadowrun) with it, including some basics of Power and a Magus Role.  It's considerably different than what you are doing here but, if you're interested in taking a look at it, I could see if it is still on my hard drive.

As I recall, it is somewhat similar in tone to Unknown Armies -- you draw power from assorted sources to cast spells, and the main focus is on how you get your fix, not what you do with it.  I was going for a sort of "Magic as drugs" feel, where you end up doing horrible things to feed what, essentially, is an addiction.  Particularly, I remember modelling vampires as mages that got their power from blood-sucking, and needed it to sustain their eternal life spells.

Caveat: I make no claims about the quality of writing or game design.  It is quite old.

yrs--
--Ben

[louissan]

Hi :)

@Mike:
Sounding harsh is nice sometimes, at least you get your point, in a friendly manner. :) As for "knowing once's hobby", well, the 'state of the art' is not knowing what's best out there, it's just knowing what's best for your regular players - all the more since we've been playing together for ca. 15-20 years. Of course, knowing about the various systems is a great way to go, but: it's just a hobby, that is, already time-consuming, and I don't want to read RPGs all day (I like real literature and real life as well :) ). So my humble goal is to build up on what my players and I are accustomed with, be it D&D, Rolemaster, Interlock, Fuzion or even a little WW.
So, yes, dividing spells in this way sounds good to me: this means quick adaptation, a quick grasp of the basic principles, and not too many questions asked about rules (sigh). Plus overall mechanics that are Interlock-like.

Now, as I mentioned in my first post, well, I'm sure it has been done before and better. Of course. How about giving me some small details about it, because I am NOT going to buy the books only to read them and get inspiration from it? :p

So, in a word, with all the falws in my thinking (ppor me heh), I'd like to get feedback sounding like: 'maybe tweak this or that' and not sounding like: 'tweak this or that, just like systemA or systemB does, and better'. I'm not after the perfect magic system in Interlock, just after critics saying whether the little blurb I did could usable as such or not.

I hope I do not sound too much stubborn or anything, really. :) Thanks for your advice, I'm already checking some source about HQ on the web ... if you have some urls, I'll be glad to take them!

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@Ben
Sure, I'd love to get my hand of such a document. How to do it? By mail? You upload it somewhere?

@ADGBoss: I'm looking now, thanks :)

Thanks all :)


Louissan

[louissan]

Just thinking: Mike, if you have any idea about better ways to 'divide magic' into basic building blocks/categories, please let me know.
I, in fact, am not quite sure of whether I should divide them up like this or in any other way. Thank you :)

[Kryyst]

Hi all,

Here are the seeds (straight out from a jpeg found on STUDIO187's web site):
- banishment
- blessing
- concealing
- contacting
- controlling
- corruption
- creation
- cursing
- destruction
- dispelling
- divination
- element: (element)
- enchantment
- evocation
- healing
- illusion
- knowledge
- manipulation
- mentalism
- movement
- nature
- necromancy
- perceiving
- protection
- revealing
- summoning
- transformation
(Most of their names are self-explanatory, I believe, or close)

That's a fairly extensive seed list and I think it could be cut down quite dramatically by probably at least half.  So lets start cutting

First places I'll cut would be getting rid of Necromancy, Nature, Cursing and Element.  The reason for that is that they are more area's of magic and not directly something you are doing.  Necromancy for example could be controlling undead, summoning undead, transfomation of undead etc..etc.. all seeds that you have same with Nature and Element.

4 gone 23 left.

Next Perceiving - what exactly is it.  To me it means seeing what can't be seen by your normal senses.  So that could be covered by some others but transformation comes most immediate as you can transform your own senses to do things they normally couldn't.

22 left

Evocation.  What exactly is evocation it's just another name for creation really so you can get rid of that.

21 left

Manipulation.  That should be covered by transformation and mentalism.

20 left

Healing.  Again that could be covered by transformation and creation.

19 left

Protection.  Again that could be covered by transformation and creation

18 left

Concealing.  That probably could be covered by a skill in some aspects and illusion and mentalism in otheres

17 Left

Controlling.  That probably could be covered with Mentalism and Transformation depending on what you are controlling.

16 Left

Right so I think that's the straight cuts we can make.  To shrink it further some names would have to be changed and some groups broadend.  But from 27 to 16 is a pretty good start.

[louissan]

Thanks :)

- For perceving, yes, you are right, it kind of 'doubles' the revealing seed. I would definitely remove one.
- Evocation; true, but I was more into making it the seed with which the Primal Essaence could be manipulated. It also covered its manipulation, as opposed to the Manipulation seed, which is for plain matter.
- Healing: yes and no. After all, this is a fantasy setting, and the 'healing' powers are not quite perceived as an ability to regrow/regenerate a molecular tissue to the state where it was before injury. That would nicely for a psionic system, I think. There, i'd say that, for look& feel, I will not take it. :)

- Necromancy, Nature could be removed, you are right, since they are more 'fields of application' than true building blocks.

It's hard to cut down magical aspects into such categories ... sigh :)

My real problem, is that using a Stat+skill+d10 system, we find that the main problem is to find common denominators that are:
- broad enough so that we won't end up with a 50-seed list.
- accurate and narrow enough in their application so that the list does not sum up to mastery of a list like Time/Energy/Movement/Mind. As interpreting a dynamical spell effect could take some time using such a list.

Now comes the problem of numbers. Make a category too specific, and you have a hard time finding mods for the corresponding spell effects. Make it too broad, and a complex spell effect, even if not powerful per se, will yield a imposible DV.

I will try to come up with a 'short' list soon.

Louissan

[Mike Holmes]

Free games:

http://www.action-system.com/downloads.html (this one is practically identical in some ways to the system that you're describing).

http://www.glorantha.com/support/GameAids.pdf (A free quickstart for Hero Quest)

In case you get time in your busy schedule.

Do a search on the phrase "effects first" here to learn about that valuable concept.

Mike