Science in PnP

[Kilor Di]

As stated here http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=8979 I use sciences in the game I'm working on.  Just to get an opinion on how some of these ideas could work.  With most of these ideas, I have not figured out the DC yet, nor the actual cost of components (and in some cases, the components themselves)

Genetics

I've created three things for Genetics.  These are Virus Creation, Gene Alteration, and Zoans (Geneticist-specific minions).  I'll adress each individually.

A geneticist can create viruses using the four chemicals that exist in all Earthen life (you know, the CGAT chemicals).  At early levels, a geneticist can only create a virus.  At higher levels, the geneticist can create a virus designed to infect one specific being (such as a general or a high mage).  At even higher levels, the geneticist can create a virus that can only infect members of a particular species (such as dragons, for instance).  I haven't figured out the DC for virus creation, or the cost of the components.  I figure you'd have to have a computer and some other equipment to synthesize the virus, which is easier due to the fact that all scientists in this world have computers grafted to their arms (they look like arm bands with LCD screens).  Of course, they would also have the skill to create a vaccine, but that would require part of the virus as a key component.

Zoans are an obscure race that the humans of Earth discovered a few centuries ago.  For reasons unknown, when Zoans are "born" they inheret little DNA from there parent.  In essence, the Zoans are blank slates, and look like blobs of white translucent slime initially.  When you first get a Zoan, you have to give it an injection of DNA.  Within an hour of injection, the Zoan mutates with whatever DNA it was given.  Later injections can be given to a Zoan to mutate it further, up to a limit.  You can't give it conflicting traits such as fire-breathing and ice-breath; it keeps whichever trait it was given first and rejects the other.  Also, if the player can get the right DNA sample, they can inject there Zoan with the DNA of another living creature, giving it the properties of that creature (dog DNA makes a canine-like Zoan, cat DNA makes a feline-like Zoan, etc.).  The lifespan of a Zoan is only a couple of years.  Unless a Zoan dies of unforseen circumstances, it will "give birth" before it dies.  The baby Zoan will have some, but not all, of it's parent's traits.  Also, Zoans can be injects to become stronger, more agile, more intelligent, etc.

Although Genetic Alteration is primarily for Zoans, it can also be applied to other races as well.  However, since most races lack the adaptability of the Zoan, certain alterations are less likely to work.  As a side note, a character can go to a professionial Genetic Engineer to try to increase stats, resistances, etc., but the cost would be very high.  It would be cheaper to let the team Geneticist try, but with a lesser chance for success.

Chemistry

All I've come up with here is the creation of chemicals such as Poisons, Acids, and Explosives.

Mechanics

Mechanics have Mechanic-specific minions which, although currently nameless, are far more versatile than Zoans.  While a mechanical minion has to be built, any attachment can conceivably be removed, while an injection given to a Zoan cannot be undone by any means.  Also, mechanics have an automatic increase to any computer or mechanical related skills, such as Hacking, Build (any machine), etc.

Energy

Sad to say, I have created very little in this science.  The only thing I could think of for this type of science was Energy Casing, which can used in building a weapon or a powered suit of armor.

Psionics

Like with Energy, I've had very few ideas for this, aside from the Mind Flare, a device that creates a temporary explosion in the minds of it's victims.  Like a flash or smoke bomb, the victims are merely stunned for a few minutes/rounds.

Well, whaddaya think?

[Kilor Di]

I'm glad so many people have been reading this thread.  However, I would like to get some opinions on this stuff.  Specifically on how to do the DC and how much to make the components cost.

EDIT: And on what you think might not work.

[Matt Wilson]

Specifically on how to do the DC

DC? Is this a d20 game? Difficulty Class?

I think to get the DC and stuff right you'll need to playtest the pants off your game. As far as I'm aware, D&D's target numbers came out of extensive playtesting, and a lot of post-release play and feedback led to the 3.5 release (other, more speculative reasons notwithstanding).

So I'd say pick some numbers that sound reasonable, and find a lot of people to try it out. Playtest feedback has resulted in a whole lotta changes in the game I'm working on. I mean an insane amount of changes.

[Kilor Di]

Okay, that makes sense.  But what about the other stuff?  Does it make sense?  Do you think it could work?

[Ben Lehman]

Hi.  Flamingly subjective commentary follows, in which I go off into my own tangents, but feel free to mine this as a source of any ideas that you see fit.

To me, someone trained as a scientist, this doesn't "feel" like science.  Now, most likely, that's not what you're going for, but if there is no real tangible difference between science and magic in your system, you've just lost a lot of your setting's charm.  This feels, to me, like every list of magical powers I have ever seen before in an RPG game.  Science is painfully slow to develop and involves a lot of dead ends, back tracking, and blood-sweat-tears.

Does this mean that realistic science is lost to your setting?  No!

The terrifying thing -- and I really mean the terrifying thing -- about science is that it is reproducible.  Once one lab gets a scientific result, every lab does.  Once the technology of the rifle is developed, everyone can use it.  Most technology is highly user-friendly, and not the sort (as above) that needs overmuch training to activate.  The terrifying thing is not that one geneticist can create a killer virus, or that one engineer can design a pulse rifle.  That's just the same as a mage with one disease or magic missile spell.  Ho hum.  The really-fucking-scary part is that, once that one thing is developed, every single soldier of the technological army has access to it.  Fast access.  10 million guys, with minimal training, using pulse rifles?  *That* is something magic cannot do.

This gives me some interesting thoughts into the magic/science divide.  How about if magic and tech aren't so seperate after all?  If they really are tapping the same truths about the universe?  The scientists are slowly realizing it in their plodding, predictable way.  The mages, on the other hand, have unique flashes of mystical insight that allow them to directly manipulate the universe -- effectively using "technology" that is tens of thousands of years ahead of the tech culture.  But the catch is that the mage's approach is individual -- each magus has to figure it out for himself, and they guard their secrets heavily.  The cost of this approach is that the cannot understand the world at all except on their own terms -- they can't use each other's magic, and they can't use the tech weapons because they simply see them as "someone else's magic."  The tech people, while they don't have such flashy things as the mages, have dependable and mass-producable technology.

The individual vs. the collective.  The mystic vs. the rationalist.  Idea vs. reality.  Power vs. Understanding.  A war worth fighting, no?

yrs--
--Ben

[Kilor Di]

You list some interesting ideas.  A few comments.

The reason science works the way it does in my game (for the time being, at least) is because I couldn't think of any other way for it to work in a game.  My only other options were either eliminating the scientist class all together, or making only one job in the scientist class and having the GM say "Okay, what do you want to try to do?", after which the player would state what they wanted to try to invent/design/whatever, and the GM would assign a difficulty and length of time, as well as any materials they would need.  If I choose the latter option, then I could say that after a certain number of successes with, for example, genetic experimentation, the scientist becomes a geneticist, and focuses of that line of science only.

If science in this game seems like magic, it might be because, in an effort to balance out magic-using/non-magic-using characters and technology-using characters, I would typically revert to "What is the technological version of...?"  In that way, I determined that the technological version of mages were, of couse, scientists.  I may have to make some drastic changes to certain character types to make them different enough from their "magical cousins" to make them playable.

There are a few theories on the nature of science and magic in relation to each other.  These theories are:

1. They are the same, or at least similar enough to be easily mistaken.

2. They are complete opposites.

3. They are like Yin and Yang.  Two parts of the whole.

In real life, I believe in theory 2 (after all, science requires more intellect while magic probably requires a lot more willpower).  However, the game itself would probably be a lot more interesting using theory 3.  Also, I don't know how to create a scientist using theory 2 in a game without nerfing them to pointlessness.

Oh, and a comment about the collective nature of science vs. the idividual nature of magic.  I totally agree with you here.  In fact, in one version of this game, the Micro-Mates (computers embedded in the arms of technological humans) created a kind of intranet; all technological humans could communicate with each other on a network.  That was when I was thinking of making the game an MMOG.  Since I'm just a computer student at a local college (I haven't even had any classes in C yet), I decided to make it a PnP game instead.  The Micro-Mates are still there, but it would be too hard to implement a Micro-Mate intranet into a PnP game, unless I created a forum board specifically for the game and had moderaters make a list of each and every advancement made by scientific characters.

Also, I'm not sure if you're saying that they shouldn't be able to create things rifles and viruses or not.  I'm assuming that these technological advancments have been around for at least a few centuries, so the scientists are doing nothing ground-breaking by creating a dragon-specific virus, or a mechanical minion with a machine gun built into it's chest.  Anything that's new and ground-breaking would not be listed in the scientist's list of possible experiments, and would therefore rely on the GM's judgement about the requirements for the successful completion of said experiment (for instance, a machine that can perform photosynthesis, or a photosynthesis generator for short).  It's like building one of those robots for Junk Wars or whatever.  It takes a certain specialized knowledge to do it (I could never make one of those things), but it's not exactly nuclear physics, brain surgery, or rocket science (whichever you think is most difficult).  In that way, the scientists in this game are not true scientists, but more like people who have a specialized knowledge of a certain field of science.

[Jasper]

I would suggest that a lot of potential confusion with this idea would be eliminated if you just replaced the word "scientist" with "inventor" or "technicion."  As Ben was pointing out, what you describe doesn't seem to haev much to do with the scientific process (i.e. scientists) but simply the use of technology.  Maybe you just want a "technologist" class.  Have you played the CRPG Arcanum?  In it there was a divide between industrial revolution era technology and the old ways of magic, and you had to choose (more or less) which to devote yourself to.

I guess I'm still not sure about your reasons for including science...is it just to have a parallel/opposite to magic?  To create variety among characters?

Oh, and just a small note about the technobabble... obviously technobabble is just an excuse to justify something, but it should at least sound good.  If you can't make it be accurate, just make it vague: part of the problem with Star Trek's babble was that they tried to explain too much of it, and it fell apart.  The bit about the Zoans not inheriting "much" DNA from their parents just jumped out as ringing false with me.

[Ben Lehman]

First of all -- keep the crazy cool interweb thing, because it is crazy, and cool.  Have the strength of connection be registered by a skill, or even an attribute with a whole set of subskills (You could call it "attunement" and have a corresponding stat for magic users be your mystical understanding.)  Backup and advice is never far away, for the Techies.  Of course, you're never really alone, either...

What you are talking about, in terms of "invention" is something that one might call "jury-rig" or "kit-bashing" and it is definitely the realm of technicians, rather than scientists.  It is an adaption of existing tech to fit the situation at hand, rather than the real creation of new tech.

I can see the scientists not so much as front-line fighters, but an elite caste, much like the Brahman of India, with their own culture, rituals, and mysteries that front-liners don't understand at all.

yrs--
--Ben

[Kilor Di]

All right!  Got some good suggestions here!  I'll go ahead and turn "scientist" into "technician" here soon.

Actually, I own Arcanum, but there is one part of the game I really don't like.  Namely the fact that if you have a high enough level of magical apptitude, you are effectively immune to technology, and vice versa.  In my game, high magical apptitude makes you more resistant towards hostile magic, but has no effect on your ability to resist technological attacks, and vice versa.

The reason for including technological races in a magical world is a long one.  You see, when I was a child up until some time after high school graduation, I wanted to be a writer.  During my childhood, I came up with an idea for a story about two groups of people.  In one group, any gifts the people displayed were natural; strength, intellect, you name it.  In the other group, anyone who had special gifts had them through technological advancements; once again, strength, intellect, etc.

I never wrote the story, so the idea stayed in my head for years, evolving throughout the years as my ideas often do.  Eventually, when I decided to try my hand at making a PnP game, this idea came in mind.  It was simple enough to replace "naturally gifted" people with magic-using people.

Sorry about the technobabble.  I have a tendency to technobabble from time to time.:)  When I first wrote it I figured I'd better try to explain why it happens the way it does, but I could just leave that sort of thing as scientific mysteries.

I'll try to keep the interweb thing.  Good idea about the stat thing.  Also, I could probably make true scientists an Elite class (described here: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=8979 (it's near the end, so you kind of have to be patient)).

To me, someone trained as a scientist

Really?  Which field are you trained in?  Just out of curiosity.

[Ben Lehman]

To me, someone trained as a scientist

Really?  Which field are you trained in?  Just out of curiosity.

BL>  Physics, with an Astro/Cosmo focus.

yrs--
--Ben

[Kilor Di]

Cool.