observation on magic

[Krammer]

now, I know that the magic is meant to be powerful, but I never really knew just how powerful it was until recently.
    in a recent scenario, the seneschal decided it might be fun to give us a castle, and see how well we could defend it from a massive army. Of course it was hopeless, which was why he decided to see how we would do if we all had magic, with 4 points of vagaries. (of course, we lost the vagaries once the scenario ended) The whole thing was just an experiment to see how we would react in that situation.
  Well, with four of us using magic, we managed to wipe out several hundred thousand gols. The spells we all used were legit (to the best of our knowledge), but it seemed almost two powerful. Using growth of three, I managed to flood the entire battle field. Then another person, using scultpure 3 made a spell similar to Avatar of the blade, only that it was on the wall, and all the gols were desintegrated when they touched it. There were a few other spells too, and in the end we managed to destroy all of the gols, and we completely destroyed the castle and the battlefield (the only reason we survived was because we made a sort of flying carpet thing.
   So yeah, I think all of our spells were made right, but it just seemed a little TOO powerful.  but hey, thats just my crazy opinion.

[Lance D. Allen]

That's the idea, Krammer.. Magic is supposed to be rare, and feared. It has it's weaknesses (as were exploited by the ballsy warrior in my own campaign recently) but if a sorcerer has the means and the time to cast a spell on you, you are fully at his mercy.

Far less destructive, and probably as effective would be mind-control spells on the leaders of the gol army... Or given their bloodthirsty natures and (assumed) clannish natures, a few select mind-control spells to make them attack one another.. I could see either causing the army to turn upon itself and destroy itself with little harm to the castle.

Considering the fact that there have been discussions on how the world could be theoretically destroyed with a single spell, no one should be surprised at the power of TRoS sorcery. There've also been many discussions on how the rules could be used to surmount the "limits in a limitless world" ie, fireball spells, and bringing the dead back to life, if a Seneschal were willing to do such in their campaigns.

[Bob Richter]

Of course, the truly crazy thing about TROS Sorcery is that it's a sledgehammer -- very useful for applications where power is needed, but almost incapable of fine and subtle work. :P

It's easier, for example, to destroy Weyrth than to make your buddy think he's drunk. :P

[Rico]

The only problem with it being "rare" is that it is not rare.We have a lot of people with magic characters (mine included) and i'm not about to tell them they can't have magic. Most of the time though they don't use magic unless it is truely a time to use it, but occasionally theres someone who uses it all of the time for everything (me included. So call me a hypocrite all ready). What do I do?

[Lance D. Allen]

If it's not rare in your campaign, then the thanks or blame (dependent on whether you think this is a good thing) is fully in the hands of your play group. My first TRoS game, though short-lived, had none. My second game also had none. My third has one, and he doesn't even cast a spell every session, despite the fact that I've altered the penalty, lessened it, IMO.. Much as the aging is kinda cool, it's never really jived with me.

[Ingenious]

TROS magic seems to me less significant the more common it is. We'd be getting closer to D*D if the whole damned party had magic. The whole point with a PC being magical is that he IS rare and feels special because of it.. even important. However, sorcery can be severely limited if your GM is highly specific with the spells.. but Jake designed it to be just as fast and loose as the combat system is.
Having a whole group of mages cuts down on the lethality of the system as well.. since with multiple magic users, that many more spells and that many more opponents die that much faster and before one of the PC's is even touched. This is all dependant on how one uses the magic system and calculates a spell.. where some GM's might seem strict.

Say there is a target of a dam, in a spell to break a hole through it to flood a battle field.
Value = 1, inanimate objects
Range = 2, line of sight
Volume = 3(depending on how thick the dam is)
Duration: 1(hour per success)
Level = 4(3+1)(sculpture:composition 3 in order to disintegrate, summoning 3 in order to maintain the magic during casting)
As a Spell of Three, this spell has a CTN of 10(if formalized, 11 if not)... as a spell of many its CTN Is 9.
So we know that this is a very hard spell to cast indeed. As a spell of three it would take 100-110 seconds to cast. As a spell of many, the casting time is 9 HOURS.

To me it sounds like you were using spells built for the purpose of AOE. I beleive we have had that discussion before.. or at least I've mentioned that possibility before.. and since they most likely involved multiple vagaries, a spell of many would be used... and ritual spells take quite a long time to do.. and to prepare for. If you did one of these on the fly.. that might be where the problem lies.. as some spells can take hours to fonish.. and in that time I'm sure the several thousand Gol would be at the castle wall and shooting arrows at the four of you... and just try dodging thousands of arrows whilst casting.

I want to ask you outright, how did you use the magic? What kind of spells were they, what were their CTN's, and what vagaries were exactly used?

Now then, what if the player-sorceror just devotes all of his entire sorcery pool to the casting of the attack, and none to resisting.. in order to assure that the spell worked? Well, he'd age that is for sure.. and might have to roll overdraw knockout... If one sees this often enough... consider coming up with a rule that a certain amount of dice has to be spent to resisting the harmful effects of magic. Or otherwise find a way to discourage this. IF aging is not incentive enough to keep players from doing such a thing, point out the aging rules to them.. for once they reach 40 years old.. they start to become old fogey's... and start losing attributes rapidly.. so if someone were to want to amp up this even further.. have all starting wizards and such be at least 25 years old. This leaves them with a window of 15 years before they start to decay in ability... so they best use their gift wisely.

And then if they are all Fey.. wtf is the point in playing in the human world? Fey don't really concern themselves with the inferior human race in TROS... so rethink the reasoning behind why the character wanted to be Fey in the first place... if it's solely to cast magic and not age.. smack them upside the head for me. Fey have their own fish to fry... and meddling in human affairs in not on their list of priorities. Faeries, gnomes, dwarves.. or other lesser siehe might be more prone to be seen with humans... as they are mortals too.

-Ingenious

[kenjib]

And then if they are all Fey.. wtf is the point in playing in the human world? Fey don't really concern themselves with the inferior human race in TROS... so rethink the reasoning behind why the character wanted to be Fey in the first place... if it's solely to cast magic and not age.. smack them upside the head for me.

Fey still age from using magic just as humans do.  The cost is actually all the more painful due to the fact that they would not age otherwise.

[StahlMeister]

To me it sounds like you were using spells built for the purpose of AOE. I beleive we have had that discussion before.. or at least I've mentioned that possibility before.. and since they most likely involved multiple vagaries, a spell of many would be used... and ritual spells take quite a long time to do.. and to prepare for. If you did one of these on the fly.. that might be where the problem lies.. as some spells can take hours to fonish.. and in that time I'm sure the several thousand Gol would be at the castle wall and shooting arrows at the four of you... and just try dodging thousands of arrows whilst casting.

That's what I think, too. I would take hours to cast such spells. Only possible in high HIGH fantasy settings.

[Ingenious]

Kenjib, point taken. Page 196 echoes that.  I meant to say that they do not age except in sorcery.. so if they were wise with The Gift they'd live for a very very very long time. I only questioned their motives behind being Fey(if they are). I tried to put some emphasis on role-playing Fey, rather than just some dolt wanting to play a Fey because of the benefits of being one, like many of us probably have gone through or done with other RPG systems.. like D&D.

-Ingenious

[Morfedel]

I have to concur with the criticisms here. TROS magic, in and of itself, IS too powerful when used in such examples.

The problem has nothing to do with having characters more powerful than other characters; Ars Magica is a perfect example; their mages are clearly stronger than non mages, and are quite powerful overall.

I think magic in TROS goes way overboard. Frankly, the only thing that can stop a mage from doing pretty much whatever he wants is another mage. I read where Gelure is supposed to be a haven for sorcerers who are hunted as heretics, and I wonder: what does a sorcerer have to fear ANYWHERE, hunted or not, with their level of power; barring their being hunted and harrassed nonstop where they simply get worn down over time, they cant really be threatened unless caught in a combat situation unprepared. And its doubtful that many people would continue to challenge a sorcerer who could terrorize whole armies into submission by his sheer power.

See the post I'm about to make concerning non-mechanics alternatives to checks and balances against Sorcerers.

[Lxndr]

In the game I'm playing in, I am a sorcerer.  Tons of vagaries, able to do a whole lotta stuff if I really cared to - but, y'know, spell pools don't refresh nearly as easily or as quickly as combat pools, so there's only so many spells you can cast.

There WERE two other sorcerers also, NPCs with, I'm pretty sure, more spellcasting ability than my character.  They're dead.  Killed stone-cold dead.  WHILE they were in the midst of casting spells, knowing that their opponent was coming after them.  Killed by a completely non-sorcerous human.

Really, I don't think the magic system is overpowered.  Just one assassin's crossbow bolt, and the show's over.

[Krammer]

After reading over the responses here, and thinking about it, I've personally come to the conclusion that, yes, it is ridiculously powerful, but at the same time, wizards aren't all-powerful. they are still quite mortal, and they usually won't use their powers to the full extent. I think the only reason my group went so crazy with magic was because they knew that the effects were only for that scenario, and not permanent.
  So, yeah, magic is powerful, but not always used in such ways. and if someone tries to use magic in such a way that could destroy the world, the senseschal can exercise his right to prevent that, just in case destroying the world would ruin the story they have planned out...