Magic-Techno RPGs

[Kilor Di]

(From my post on the Planet AD&D Forums, under the name Kilor Di)
I'm currently in the process of making a PnP game that takes place in a world of magic and technology. Unlike some worlds which shall remain nameless, this world keeps magic and technology seperate (meaning you can't have a team of shotgun-wielding sorcerers). I'm currently working solo on this project, which means it will take even longer as I decided to not use anything that's been done a dozen times before (there are no dwarves, no elves, etc.). In some cases, I try to use things in a way they've never been done before (dragons, divine powers, etc.). Among the problems I've run across (besides the fact that I'm basically making everything from scratch) is the fact that the magical aspect of this world seems to be easier to make than the technological aspect (if I remember correctly, I have 10 schools of magic, but only 6 sciences, including one I just thought of today).

The premise is this...you have the races of magic; humans, dragons, demons, and everything else I make up from scratch (unfortunately, the only other magical race I've created is a blue-skinned race that's adept at magic). These beings are native to the worlds and have lived there all their lives. The humans in this example came here long ago, as part of a demonic plot to spread chaos throughout these worlds.

Then you have the races of technology; humans, sentient robots, highly intelligent lizard-men (with yellow scales, no doubt), and anything else I can make up. These races came to these worlds for various reasons. The humans in this example fled from Earth, because it has finally reached the point where it can no longer support life. The technology used by these characters is very futuristic (as I believe only very futuristic technology could compete with things like dragons, demons, wizards, etc.).

When the technological races first arive at these worlds, there's a war between the two factions. Any party must either be on one side of a war, or must be a party that's independant of the war. Either way, the players would not be able to have a mixed party with both magical and technological characters.

After the war, the players could have a team with both magical and technological characters, but I think that technological characters would benefit more from technological teammates, and vice versa (i.e., a scientist that can make an energy gun, such as a plasma rifle, can give it to a technological soldier, and he would be able to use it just fine (provided he has the skills for rifle weapons), while giving the same gun to a non-technological warrior would be a waste in time, as non-technological characters can EVER learn how to use them).

With the exception of one Elite class (my version of the Prestige Class system DnD uses), there are no classes capable of using both magic and technology.


Anyone else making one of these?  I could use some advice, especially considering that the magic side is easier, since I can create an actual hystory of certain locations, artifacts, creatures, etc.

[Andrew Martin]

Welcome to The Forge!

So, what do players do in this game setting?

Also, do you have any specific questions in mind?

Anyone else making one of these?

Have you seen FASA's Shadowrun and Earthdawn games? The first is cyberpunk technology and magic mixed with fantasy races on near-future Earth, while Earthdawn is meant to be the prehistory of the Shadowrun, but some have said it's meant to look like what Shadowrun could develop into.

[M. J. Young]

Well, I'm not designing anything like that at the moment; I do work with worlds that are like that in Multiverser once in a while, but there are some critical differences.

I'm curious regarding the in-game rationale for why player characters of various types can't learn skills in opposing areas--that is, why tech characters can't learn mag and mag characters can't learn tech. Or does that only apply to non-player characters? I think a lot of players will puzzle of this.

So, what is it that is giving you trouble? You seem to be doing pretty well so far.

--M. J. Young

[Knarf]

The distinction between magic and tech is very artificial and I think a lot of people are going to notice that unless you come up with a very good in game reason why not.

A suggestion: Tech-based characters cannot learn magic because it requires either the right mindset (which tech characters cannot achieve due to their dependance on technology), or some special gene that is only transmitted among the magic people.

No powered device may be enchanted, because the energy matrices interfere with each other.

Magic people may use tech, but developing the skills to do so is at double cost, and can never learn to create tech. If the mindset option I mentioned above is chosen, a magic character can lose that mindset through overuse and overreliance on technology.

However you do any of this is your call, but artificial restrictions are a big RPG turnoff for me.

[Kilor Di]

Hmm.  A lot of responses.  I'll try to answer in order.

Let's see...there are two reasons why techs can't use magic and vice versa.
a) they lack the understanding for it

b)divine mandate

an example of the first...you have two characters, a tech-soldier and a wizard.  The wizard launches a bolt of lightning from his hand.  Now the soldier, being raised to use and understand technology, does not understand how the wizard accomplished this.  Even after asking several different wizards, he would probably not understand how to do it.  Conversly, the soldier uses a weapon that fires a green ball of light that sets it's target on fire.  The wizard is amazed by this, and even after studying the weapon will never understand how this form of "magic" operates.

as for the second reason, the gods of the magic-users forbid their worshippers from using and developing technology.  Likewise, the technology-users believe that magic is satanic.

The reason I need help is because I've been working on this game for about 3 years or so, and I've still just barely gotten started.  It took me years just to figure out how science would work in the game.

Technology cannot be enchanted by magic because it would be redundant for the most part.  A Laser Rifle of Fire would be a lousy weapon.  As for +1 or +2 weapons, technological weapons can be technologically upgraded.

Hope I answered them all.

[Kilor Di]

So, what do players do in this game setting?

Also, do you have any specific questions in mind?

Oops...missed a few.

As I said earlier, in the early years of the game, it's pretty much a war story, chronicling the war between magic and technology.  After that, it settles down into a more DND-style dungeon crawling game.  However, the war mentioned here is not the only war in the game.

Yes, I have heard of ShadowRun.  The only time I've ever played it, I was a Dwarven gang member with the nickname "Battle Axe".  An interesting game, but they kind of mixed their metaphors a bit when making it.

EDIT:  None of this is set in stone, with the exception of not using anything that's been used a hundred times before, or at least not the way it has been done before.

Oh, and about specific questions, here are a few...

How many types of spells and technology should I have?  Should they be about equal in number?

How many monsters makes for a good campaign world?  Granted, the early years are mostly a war story, but even soldiers would have the occasional random encounter.

How do I balance magic and technology without using the lame*** approach used in Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura?  So far, I'm thinking of using a system of resistances.

Should I have some technological monsters to balance the amount of magical and normal monsters roam this world?

Currently, I'm using Psionics as one of the Core Sciences, rather than a type of magic like in most games.  It makes sense to me that scientists would try to tap the potential of the mind.  Anyone got a problem with it?(friendly question)

Finally, anyone want to help me with this?  Since I decided not to use anything that's been done before unless I can do it in a new and interesting way, it's taken me a while to make most of what I have.

EDIT: Anyone interested in helping me with this project e-mail me at ginkelaar@hotmail.com  I'm not part of a company that makes games.  I'm just a man, making a game, asking you too...sorry, I went into cornball mode for a minute.

[b_bankhead]

In the game Otherkind the characters are members of the 'fae' races with an aversion to iron, both physically and metaphysiclly. In your game 'iron' is an excellent metaphor for the aversion to technology of the magic users.

Otherkind is worth a look and can be found here :
http://www.septemberquestion.org/lumpley/other.html

[anonymouse]

This doesn't really seem like something that any amount of setting rationale is going to be able to support. It's just a very obvious game-balance mechanic, in the vein of many computer or console games, or things like past (A)D&D incarnations.

Totally nothing wrong with that, but it's the impression I'm getting. I'd say don't worry about why one can't be one thing or another, the same way people didn't sweat too much over the fact that they could be an elf, or a human fighter, but not an elven fighter (or whatever). You're either a "technology class" or a "magic class" and the two don't mix. End of discussion.

[Andrew Martin]

How many types of spells and technology should I have?  Should they be about equal in number?

How do I balance magic and technology...

Should I have some technological monsters to balance the amount of magical and normal monsters roam this world?

I've noticed that you use "balance" and "equal". Is your game system intended to be used in competitions?

[bifevo]

I think many parts of your concept sound interesting; however, the idea of "magic users can't use tech & vice versa" has been a cliche for some time now. It has been done in virtually every setting that combines the two, and always strikes me more as a "game-balance" issue than a real concept of the game world.

If you are comfortable with retreading this territory, then that is fine. However, if you were to come up with an alternate way of handling these two concepts, then I feel that would be rewarding to your system and players.

Also, as a note from having designed games that have concepts on the verge of being cliched, don't ever do something solely because it's not been done before. For example, a CCG about planet-sized frogs hasn't been done before, and there's likely a good reason for it. Do things because you think they are interesting, not just to be different.

Good luck,
-Scott

[Kilor Di]

Well, the reason I made it were magic-users can't use tech and vice versa is because at the time there were quite a few books, movies, etc. (mostly anime) where characters could use extremely powerful magic, but also used technology.  IMO, if you have one, you don't really need the other.  Being about the launch a fireball at a group of enemies and then pick the survivors off with an uzi would be cool, but then every party of at least 6 people would have at least 5 gun-toting mages.

I hadn't really considered the idea of competitions before, but it's not a bad idea.  I may have to incorporate that idea in there.

The reason for not using what's been done before is that everyone more or less knows what an elf can do, or what the pros and cons are of choosing a dawrven warrior over a human warrior.  I've always prided myself on originality, and I think gamers would appreciate the effort put into creating new races and histories rather than using the standard.

BTW, I mentioned earlier that there's an Elite class (my version of Prestige classes) that can use both magic and technology.  So it's not impossible to have a gun-toting mage.  They're just very rare.

Elite classes work kind-of like prestige classes.  Both have requirements that must be met to attain them.  One requirement that all elite classes have is that you have to find a master of that class and complete a quest in order for him to take you on as a student.  When you become an elite class, you lose all levels you previously had (but keep your stats and skill points).  Elite classes don't gain levels like other classes, instead relying on a ranking system.  You start as a Student and when you've mastered the class, you become a Master.  Since you don't learn spells and skills by leveling (obviously), these are awarded by your master after attaining a certain rank or by completing quests your master gives you.  So it would take a while to master the gun-toting mage, but I think players might find it rewarding.

[Kilor Di]

I must have been tired when I made my last post on this topic.  Usually I catch these spelling errors.  Also, a few more details (since they were already listed on the Planet ADnD forum where I originally posted this topic):

Some of the types of magic I've created are:

Elemental (Time)
Elemental (Space)
Elemental (Light)
Elemental (Sound)
Elemental (Life)
Elemental (Death)
Zodiac Magic

The only types of science I've created are:

Core Science (Genetics)
Core Science (Mechanics)
Core Science (Psionics)
Core Science (Chemistry)
Core Science (Energy)
Cybernetics
Bio-Chemistry

Just to get your opinion on them.  I didn't list all my types of magic here.  The reason I use different elements is because I figure the true universe is not made of Fire, Water, Air, and Earth, but of other things.  Beings who practice magic should be particularly aware of this fact.  Therefore, in this world, the elements are Time, Space, Life, Death, Light and Sound.  I honestly don't remember why I created the Core Sciences.  I guess I'll remember the purpose for them soon enough.

[Urandal]

In my world, I solved the magic versus tech by saying that both take lots of time to master, they can still be used together, but one rarely works on the other, because to use the full potential of magic, one must seclude himself from the world and train is mind and is body, on the other hand, thouse o use magic without the proper training, are able to influence reality in minor ways, and have fewer chances of learning tech skils, per instances, one of my test caracters uses two special gunns to guide some of is shots, but never being trained he onli knows that particular trick, now imagine a speedster powered by magic that nows its true potential, both use magic to influence the fight, butt the first runes out of juice metch faster than the last, and even guiding a bulet to try to hit the speedster, the gunnman will fall to hes knees, probably even electrocuted, has the energy that magic is, corses true hes body uncontroled.
Sow, if you were the gunnmen, would you keep on guiding the bulet or just try to shoot like a mad man to alll places and pray you hit that lucky shot?