Breaking weapons

[Drifter Bob]

Is there any means within the TROS rules for one weapon to break another, during a parry say, or for a weapon to break a shield?

JR

[Jake Norwood]

Not currently, unless you count the *very* flexible rules for Fumbles.  I'm not a big beliver that weapon breakage was common enough or predictable enough to keep track of anything to test for it.  As for shield breakage...same deal.

Jake

[Salamander]

I was thinking about this the other day. I have handled some antique swords that were handled very roughly, maybe even downright abused by thier original owners and while they show signs of hard abuse, they seem to have held up over the ages. While I have not much experience beating the hell out of things with reproductions, I have no fear of hitting something solid with any of my repro swords. In fact I clove twain a number of frozen pumpkins during the Great Pumpkin Uprising of '03. I also managed to break a warhammer (Milan's) during that party too...

I think that a new weapon would have little chance of breaking, to the point of making a mechanic for it being useless. But for older or munitions grade weapons, now we have something to think about. I think we would consider also that most weapons that were well made were most likely much more durable than we commonly give them credit for.

For example, the flammard doppelhander debate at SFI, There the common vein is that the weapon might not have so easily cut through pike heads as was once suspected and this was confirmed by people who re-enact pike formations. So what about the swords being used to percuss the pikes out of the enemy's hands... possible. I mean, why cut a pike when knocking it away and removing the menace will do just as well.

But I got off topic there.

Also if we consider breakage, where are the shards of the weapon going after breakage occurs? We do have to consider a good pound or two of metal that was once under tension flying away in many directions would do some damage if it hit anybody. Especially those who are unarmoured.

[Hereward The Wake]

I would work on the lower the quality of the weapon then the greater the liely hood of it breaking, especially of going against good quality stuff, one occasionally get things like this happening in the Sagas, link to other thread! 8').
I would employ it on an occasional basis, perhaps under the fumble rule, when bad weapons come up against good. And more so if the scenario suggests/supports it.

JW

[Caz]

In my experience this is best done as a "gm call" by a knowledgeable gm rather than by mechanic.

[Ingenious]

Weapon breakage? No clue on that one.
Shield breakage? That's happened to me before.
That was when we used shields to 'soak' damage, and were using Wolfen's(I think) over-damage rules.
The shield absorbed 8 points, the weapon kept heading for my groin, hit my groin, the armor there was 0.. and my TO took the rest. But sucesses won the day. They kept me from feeling it. (Cant remember if i won the margin or not..)

But it was a very effective event.. I could no longer defend during an attack.. and (as I had a flail in my right hand) could not parry worth a shit. So I ran, got my halberd.. and chopped the dude in half.

It has been my experience that weapon breakages and shield breaks are for when someone really kicks the crap out of your weapons/shield.. and the blow continues through it and into you. They're fun... amplify the 'oh shit!!' factor.. and make for highlights in the story.
-Ingenious

[Richard_Strey]

In my game, I don't use weapon-break rules, at all. You see, if weapons were to break so easily that a rule was needed, no-one would use them. I've practiced Langes Schwert (German Longsword) for three years now and I've learned a thing or two about actively employing all kinds of weapons. They are *tough*, as long as they are used they way they should be. Put a sword point down on the ground and bend it like mad or bang it edge-on-edge and it'll give eventually. But in professional use? I don't see that happen.

Another thought: Why would a "good" weapon make a "bad" weapon break more easily than a "normal" one vs. a "bad" one? As long as they are intact, they should act pretty much the same.

[Hereward The Wake]

Dealing with modern copies of period weapons, we are dealing with metal of an even a consistant quality. There is little or no chance of impurities within the weapon etc. Historically this was not the case, hence the skill of the sword smith to be able to produce a near perfect weapon from imperfect materials. Also the reason why there centrec where high quality swords were produced because of the better quality raw materials there and then the associated gathering of the craftemen asociated with it.

I would agree that, correct use of the weapon should prevent or at least reduce the likelyhood of breakage. However, if anything is going to get in the way of correct usage, are the stress of a life or death confrontation.

I used the word good, it could just as easyly been a normal. But what is a normal weapon? Having examned a fair number of surving period weapons, you can see based on quality in production etc, that some weapons are better than others, and that when looking at the extreme ends of the scales you could class the some as being quite badly made.

I aggree that one doesn't really need a mechanic for sword breakage, hence my point that it would depend on the story etc and perhaps be used as part of a fumble.

[Richard_Strey]

Dealing with modern copies of period weapons, we are dealing with metal of an even a consistant quality. There is little or no chance of impurities within the weapon etc. Historically this was not the case, hence the skill of the sword smith to be able to produce a near perfect weapon from imperfect materials. Also the reason why there centrec where high quality swords were produced because of the better quality raw materials there and then the associated gathering of the craftemen asociated with it.

I would agree that, correct use of the weapon should prevent or at least reduce the likelyhood of breakage. However, if anything is going to get in the way of correct usage, are the stress of a life or death confrontation.

I used the word good, it could just as easyly been a normal. But what is a normal weapon? Having examned a fair number of surving period weapons, you can see based on quality in production etc, that some weapons are better than others, and that when looking at the extreme ends of the scales you could class the some as being quite badly made.

I aggree that one doesn't really need a mechanic for sword breakage, hence my point that it would depend on the story etc and perhaps be used as part of a fumble.

I fully agree with you there, Jonathan. With "good/bad/normal" I was referring to the rules-wise categories and making a point of the fact that to any kind of object impacted, a "good" weapon will feel the same as a "normal" or "bad" one. As long as it doesn't break.
Further, I firmly believe that the reliability of weapons made by a certain manufacturer will be known among the users. And the ones failing at a regular rate will simply not be bought or used anymore; dire need or deception on the seller's part excepted. Note that I refer to the pure "structural ability" of the weapons, not craftsmanship, balance and whatnot.

[Hereward The Wake]

My personal feeling are that a sword etc. is not an easy thing to get hold of in most settings we deal with. As such a sword is a prized item, even a normal (average one) and a good one a truely great prize. People would want the best but would not have the option to get a good one and have to do with whatevert hey could get. Of course the market would want to get good swords and fake may be there. See all the ULFBEHRT swords, the opinion that some are made and have his name on them but weren't made by him but in his workshop or may even be knock offs made at the time! Though of course a person tarined in the use of a weapon will have knowledeg generally what is a good weapon or not, but again only as much as they have been exposed to. They may then find that there are better weapons out there, they hadn't seen them before.
So I don't think anyone would go into a fight with a weapon they though would break, but I don't discount the fact that it could happen and therfore I would entertain the possibility in a scenario.

All the best

JW

[Drifter Bob]

Some descriptions of weapon breakage from the viking sagas...

They did so, and he hewed off the hand at the wrist. Then the fingers straightened and were loosed from the hilt. Angle took his sword in both hands and hewed at Grettir's head. So mighty was the blow that the sword could not hold against it, and a piece was broken out of the edge. When asked why he spoilt a good weapon, he replied: "It will be more easily known if there be any question."



Against Gunnar came Vandil, and smote at once at him with his sword, and the blow fell on his shield. Gunnar gave the shield a twist as the sword pierced it, and broke it short off at the hilt. Then Gunnar smote back at Vandil, and three swords seemed to be aloft, and Vandil could not see how to shun the blow. Then Gunnar cut both his legs from under him, and at the same time Kolskegg ran Karli through with a spear.



"To batten the black-feathered wound-bird
With the blade of my axe have I stricken
Full thirty and five of my foemen;
I am famed for the slaughter of warriors.
May the fiends have my soul if I stain not
My sharp-edged falchion once over!
And then let the breaker of broadswords
Be borne -- and with speed -- to the grave!"

After that they fall on him, and he breaks a spear of each of them, so well did he guard himself. Then Skiolld cut off his hand, and he still kept them off with his other hand for some time, till Sigmund thrust him through. Then he fell dead to earth.



So the hide was taken and spread under their feet. Thorgils held his brother's shield, and Thord Arndisarson that of Bersi. Bersi struck the first blow, and cleft Cormac's shield; Cormac struck at Bersi to the like peril. Each of them cut up and spoilt three shields of the other's. Then it was Cormac's turn. He struck at Bersi, who parried with Whitting. Skofnung cut the point off Whitting in front of the ridge. The sword-point flew upon Cormac's hand, and he was wounded in the thumb. The joint was cleft, and blood dropped upon the hide. Thereupon folk went between them and stayed the fight.
Then said Cormac, "This is a mean victory that Bersi has gained; it is only from my bad luck; and yet we must part."



He flung down his sword, and it met Bersi's target. A shard was broken out of Skofnung, and fire flew out of Thorveig's gift.
Bersi asked the money for release, Cormac said it would be paid; and so they parted.



Olaf went to the fold-door and struck at him with his spear. Hrapp took the socket of the spear in both hands and wrenched it aside, so that forthwith the spear shaft broke.



Gunnar gave the shield such a sharp twist that the spearhead broke short off at the socket. Gunnar sees that another man was come within reach of his sword, and he smites at him and deals him his death-blow. After that, he clutches his bill with both hands; just then, Thorgeir Otkell's son had come near him with a drawn sword, and Gunnar turns on him in great wrath, and drives the bill through him, and lifts him up aloft, and casts him out into Rangriver, and he drifts down towards the ford, and stuck fast there on a stone; and the name of that ford has since been Thorgeir's ford.

[Ingenious]

Again I bring up the issue of metallurgical technology from period, to modern..
Modern metallurgy is so far advanced as compared to back then..
But that still does not mean that a period copy made at this point would be superior to one back then..

Most modern swords and/or display swords are made from the viewpoint of low production cost.. and hence higher profit margin.. they are mass-produced and quality does not matter except for appearance.(I.e. if you tried combat with it.. it might bend.. and stay bent.. or break.. etc etc)
Some companies though DO make swords with modern technology that ARE combat ready however..

Historical weapon breakage did occur.. more often than you think.
Weapon/armor quality is dependant on price really..
If you want a superior weapon.. you will go to an experienced smith to make one.. if you are short on funds.. you'll have to resort to going to an apprentice to make one.. who lacks the complete and full understanding of his art...
Thus, you could enable a 'peasant' in TROS.. to afford a sword.. though it would be so craptastic that weapon breakage WOULD be an issue.

But with armor.. a peasant IMO wouldnt be able to afford even an appretice-made suit of plate.. if he did the quality(i.e. AV) would be low enough that average chainmail would be stronger than it. Well, he could.. but I imagine it costing 3 gold(60% of his starting money).. and he'd be better off buying chain anyways.

Now then.. to bore you with my knowledge.
The iron in steel turns into austensite when heated.. and then that turns into martensite upon rapid cooling of the austensite, and the martensite is what gives the steel its strength. I.e. the more martensite in a steel, the stronger it is. Speaking of the microstructure of steel.. see below.

For more info on the composition of steel and so forth..
http://www.lassp.cornell.edu/sethna/Tweed/Martensite_History.html
http://www.ce.berkeley.edu/~paulmont/CE60/
http://www.cashenblades.com/Info/Martensite.htm
(some of that info in there is modern methodoligy and such)

Mmmmmm steel microstructural properties... *drools*
You see, through improper heat-treatment... an item might not have a good percentage of martensite.. therefore it will have alot of flaws.. being that brittleness, etc etc.
And the lack of forming enough austensite to make enough martensite.. happens through poor heating methods.
Fascinating information.
And here I thought that was useless information that I learned from aviation maintenance class.. glad I could remember it lol.
-Ingenious

[Drifter Bob]

I'm not saying that TROS necessarily needs weapon breakage rules, but from an Historical perspective, I think weapon breakage happened a lot more than y'all realise.

I do not think it was necessarily due to inferior metal or poor crafstmanship either.

I've been researching a weapon database for a project pretty intensively for about three years, and in that time I have poured over thousands of anecdotes like those from the Viking sagas above that I copied for your amusement from the ARMA website (where there is an excellent publically available resource of this kind of stuff)  these range from Classical (Greek and Roman) era, through medieval, and renaissance sources, as well as even later anecdotes such as from dueling here in New Orleans in the 19th century.

All in all, my impression is this:

most military weapons were very well made.  Civilian (rapier etc.) and partial civilain weapons (like saxes, axes, etc.) seemed more fragile.

But all of them broke frequently in combat.

This is due to A) the chaos of a fight where things like unintentional edge parries, for example, can happen, and B) the likelyhood of hitting things that swords, for example, aren't really ideally meant to hit, like heavy iron shield bosses, shield rims, iron helmets, even rocks on the ground, horse bridles, lamp brackets, wagon fittings all kinds of wierd stuff.

Then there was C) also the issue of your opponents intentionally breaking weapons with shields, as mentioned twice in the saga excerpts above, and by other heavier weapons.  Consider the reference above to the broadsword shattering falchion.  I know maces weren't as heavy in real life as we were often led to believe, but striking a solid iron bar from some of the real ones I have seen in a museum could be quite challenging for even a well tempered sword of good steel, IMHO, let alone being struck by the head of one.  Most blades can be broken by stepping on them and applying a hysterical pull.... which might not be reccomended for fun but could make sense in a fight to the death...

I have read a LOT of examples particularly of civilian weapons such as rapiers, sideswords, and smallswords breaking in anecdotes of Renaissance street fights, in fact it seems like you rarely read of where this doesn't happen to somebodies weapon.  I think military weapons were much stronger though, but you still hear of them breaking quite often.  For those who despise anecdotal evidence, there is also significant archological evidence from battlefields, numerous weapons obviously broken in the fight.

I'm going to look for some of the Renaissance era stories I mentioned, if I can find them I'll post 'em.

Overall, I think something like a 1% chance per combat with average wepaons for them to break would be realistic.  Whether that is good for game balance, for the theme of the game, or whether the game just gets to that level of detail, is another matter.  I also think however that some weapons broke much, much more frequently.  Civilian weapons like rapiers maybe as much as 2-5% of the time in a serious fight, while some weapons like heavy lances reportedly broke as much as half the time (50%), and others like the Roman Pilum Javelin were designed to break 100% of the time so they couldnt' be thrown back...

jR