oh no. Not another thread about hit points.

[Sparky]

Whee! I love lots and lots of options. I don't want the ideas to stop rolling in.

First, I'd better clarify that we are indeed simulating old west fiction as a few of you commented on. When discussig what we wanted out of this game, a lot of examples were thrown around. One thing we were quick to agree on was including the chance that your PC could die. Other examples from movies and books, plus what was known from actual history.

We're shooting for a reasonable similarity to realism as opposed to including any special effects. But the game is about 'grit' despite risk. Can you rise to the challenge, relying only on a little technology and whatever abilities you bring?

Further, the track I've taken is that medical knowledge of that time is not much help when treating serious medical problems. The doctor's biggest assets are experience and improving morale. I also am using the rule of thumb I gleaned (from the Traveller list) where a person, when seriously injured does only three things. They might ignore the wound temporarily, go into shock (things get  more complicated) or they just die.

Zathreyel asked about the system. It's very basic, fluid and reflects my more narrative preferences. PCs consist of 75pts split into various traits (occupations, skills, personal and physical qualities, etc.) Two of these are summed, modified by difficulty to create a target number. Using FitM task resolution, players try to roll less or equal to that number on a d20. Just how much lower is called the margin and a margin of 10 or more reflects a major success in the task.

It would be nice, for consistency, to have a mechanic in place to maintain the tone that's been set up. We are planning to rotate the GMing duties, and the other primary GM is a hard number sort. The mechanic should dictate results but leave lots of wiggle room for the GM to create specifics. We also want to avoid basing dying purely on dice rolls or purely on dramatic sensibility, given the fickle natures of both dice and preferences.

So the general direction I'm leaning is to have a single number/wound track/thing that the GM tracks on behalf of each PC. The GM can describe the pertinent effects of morale, wounds, fatigue, etc and the player decides how much they'll push it....we'll see much grit they have. It'll refresh over time or at appropriate times.

There's a lot of good ideas to draw on in the threads above. Have to tinker around.

Thanks!

Sparky

[orbsmatt]

That sounds quite interesting.  Excuse me from deviating from the topic a bit, but how is it working out?  Do your players find the system fun to play?

[Umberhulk]

Well, from my first aid classes I remember that there are 3 major life saving steps:

clear the Airway, stop the Bleeding, and Check for shock  (ABC).  Anyway, if the respiratory and pulminary systems are affected then you can die quickly, shock can incapacitate you.  Otherwise the wounds just hinder you in some way.  So, for a realistic system you need to consider suffocation, bleeding, and pain/shock rules.  I also think that individual wounds heal separately, not in an aggregated fashion (like HPs).  Each wound should have varying first aid and medical treatment difficulty and some natural recovery and reinjury rules.

[The Immortal MOOSE!]

Good points all, Umberhulk.  My only concern with something like what you describe is.... when is realism too real?

Too many wound tables I think would bog down the game.  Every time anyone gets shot (which could potentially happen very often), you'd need to determine all of these various effects, in addition to the immediate effect of the shot.

Do you have any suggestions for accounting for all of this while keeping the game running smoothly?

[komradebob]

Hi:
I have a couple of questions for the original poster:

1) Are PCs in your game at an advantage over NPC type threats?

Basically, are all humans in a pretty tight range of durability, or are you going with some sort of "mook" type concept, where minor enemies are given a shortened method of damage taking?

2) Have you considered allowing Players to have some imput on how an attack or damage source affects their character?

Admittedly, this question comes from my mini wargaming experience. In the current ed.of wh40k, players have limited ability to determine which models in a squad that comes under fire are removed. They aren't allowed to determine how many. Compare this to a rpg character in a system that uses some sort of ablative (hps/health levels) damage tracking.

3) Since you are designing the system, have you simply jotted down a big list of damage effects you'd like to see in the game, and how often in combat you think they should likely occur?

I'm not thinking of a whole system, just a sort of brainstorming session.

4) Have you considered the impact of post-shootout effects?

Slow healing times and permanent maiming may seriously impede later actions by characters. A game might grind to a halt under such circumstances. Most players I know would ternd to retire a PC that was all shot up in favor of creating a new character to complete a given adventure, especially if the adventure had some sort of deadline aspect.

5) Have you considered a reward type system to counteract permanent damage from combat?

Using something like xps to buy off long term effects of combat might be viable. Frex, some maiming might be permanent, but xps buy off the damage rather than get used to advannce other skills. In a way, this isn't dissimilar to allowing players to have some choice on damage effects as in #2 above, but does it at the end of an adventure/between adventures instead of at the time of damage.

Robert

[Umberhulk]

Too many wound tables I think would bog down the game. Every time anyone gets shot (which could potentially happen very often), you'd need to determine all of these various effects, in addition to the immediate effect of the shot.

Well, in the first aid classes (at least in the Army) they have wound cards, that show an injury and then you would have to demonstrate how to treat it with first aid.  Like, this guy has a sucking chest wound what do you do? Or this other guy has his upper arm is broken, how do you splint it?  Pehaps you could have a deck of wound cards based on the kind of damage received (like slashing, piercing, crushing).  Each card would describe the immediate damage roll effect and consequences for missing the roll.  Armor would increase the odds of making this roll.  If the wound "sticks" then there is a first aid roll, medical roll, and natural healing roll described.  The wounds would need to describe respiratory, pulminary and shock effects.

This would be fairly easy to play, but would be time intensive to design a comprehensive deck of possible wounds.  This damage system also assumes a randomness of hit location determined by the draw of a card.  Called shots would be an issue.

[Sparky]

Hmm...

Orbsmatt, The players (all 4) are quite eager to play again and feedback has been positive. (One player is very used to a certain other homebrew system, which has preconfig'd things like Strike, Dodge, etc. It's a little confusing for him, but I think I'll have a list of his traits jotted down so that I can suggest combinations.)

Robert,
Overall, I've tried to consistently narrate rolls so that it's easy-to-inure but hard-to-kill even minor NPCs with a single shot. I figure that the body is tougher than we give credit for sometimes while still having a limit. I've pretty much been playing by the narrative triggers method mentioned earlier. Jotting down the kinds of damage and frequency I want to see them happen is just the kind of thing I should have already thought of and done. doh!

As for player input, these players tend to resist using meta-game reesources, but we lean toward the idea that every shot is a called shot (even if you're just going for center-mass.) Using xp to buy off bad traits (wounds) is a great idea, IMO, but these guys don't like that kind of thing. I see that as limiting yourself to only eating meat and potatoes at every meal, but I'm more experimental.

Umberhulk, the ABC and the wound cards are a great idea to have in a game. I agree with your individual wounds heal/affect individually, and I like the greater application of the traits concept (namely that the chars track their traits and I assign newer temporary or permanent traits to them, such as 'leg wound.') Unfortunately, that gets too much for me to track when trying to keep the game running.

But I like the concept of mentally checking the ABC and basing difficulties and consequences off that. It could be tied into a margin chart where the better the margin, the more severe the ABC complications or even some kind of wound ladder by damage type, maybe. That would let me work in a lot of the things I like from the other suggestions too.

It might be a few days until I post again, possibly not until Friday when I'll have time to have put together this ladder-thing and see if I like it.

Thanks!
Sparky

[The Immortal MOOSE!]

Umberhulk:  Nicely done!

I had never even thought of the possibilites of using anything other than books and dice during an RPG session.  I rather like the idea of wound cards.  Hmm.... I'll need to research that li'l idea for my own games....

[Umberhulk]

Umberhulk: Nicely done!

Thanks!  There is another issue to work out also: making the wound card match the force of the blow.  When is an arm chopped off versus just gashed?  Does each wound card have steps, or have different piles of cards based on severity?  Not sure what would be better.

Or they can be made in wound track steps (like Minor, Light, Moderate, Serious, Critical) and not distinguish hit locations on the card itself.

Something else that is cool about wound cards is that you can have healing technology or magic that masks the effects of the wound as well as other skills/spells that actually heal the wounds (discard the wound card).

[The Immortal MOOSE!]

Hmm.... each wound card could have a list of possible effects, 2-3.  You would default to the lightest effect, then having a "wound roll" to determine the severity.

EXAMPLE:  

You receive a card with listings for "Light Wound", "Moderate Wound" and "Severe Wound".  By default, you are afflicted with a light wound.  The GM (or player) then makes a wound check to determine whether or not they are afflicted with a moderate wound.  If it is determined thay are afflicted with a moderate wound, they then roll to determine if they are afflicted with a severe wound.  If the roll fails to confirm a wound at any point, stop rolling and record the nature and penalties of the last confirmed wound.

[Umberhulk]

As long as the opposed "soak" roll is against the damage inflicted, I think that works out well.

This damage system is very SIM-y and will make combat very deadly and something to be avoided, but I feel that it is playable.

[Sparky]

Just chiming in with a finalization...

I'll secretly track two scores for each PC, one for physical health and the other for morale (Have to get more westernish names for them, of course.) Any damage greater than a 10pt margin comes directly off the health score, as well as any overflowing morale damage.

Thanks to everyone for the input. It was a big help.

Sparky