No combat pool with initative

[Dan Sellars]

Hello All,

I had a situation I didn't know how to resolve at the weekend.  

Character A attacked character B with all his dice pool, charcter B defenced with All but 1 dice.  The result was a draw, which I think would normally mean that A still had initative.  However B still has one dice left.  I ruled that he could attack with that one dice (is this correct?).

He then missed.  Who has initative in the next round? As B performed the last attack but missed, yet A was passive in that attack so didn't 'steal' initaitve.  Or does A have initative as he 'won' the last exchange they were both part of?

Cheers,
Dan.

[nsruf]

I'm still a newbie here but I think I can answer that: it has been clarified (and may even be in the rules) that in case only one combatant has dice on the second exchange, he automatically gets initiative. Also, if the attacker and defender both get no successes, this is still a draw and initiative remains with the attacker as usual. So I'd say B has the initiative on the next round.

[Valamir]

That's correct.  Attacking with all dice in the first exchange is generally a bad idea.  Always keep at least 1 die back in order to keep the initiative if you win.  Otherwise, even if you win the attack, if you didn't inflict enough shock to completely deplete the defender's pool, the defender gets the initiative from you for the simple reason of you being out of dice.

[Dan Sellars]

Thanks,

Thats what I was thinking myself but wasn't sure.

Dan.

[Richard_Strey]

Now I have a question myself. Just for clarification, so here goes:

A is attacking B all-except-one, while B is defending with all-except-five. B figured he could take the beating with armor and a shield and stay unharmed. It worked. Now A still has the initiative with ONE die.

Case 1: A attacks. What is to keep B from declaring attack as well, presumably survive the one-die-attack and then whack the undefended A with his five dice?

Case 2: A does not attack, but evade/parry whatever, seeing that B will try to score. One die will likely not save his hide, though.

In essence: What good does keeping the initiative do if you get whacked anyway?

The way I see it, overextending yourself and not bringing your opponent down is a bad thing. Right? I know this is the case IRL, and I hope the rules say so, as well.

[nsruf]

Case 1: A attacks. What is to keep B from declaring attack as well, presumably survive the one-die-attack and then whack the undefended A with his five dice?

Not much, unless A is strong enough to reliably deal damage even on a MOS of 1. If he selects a weakly armored location for the attack, B might reconsider. Also, if you use the optional to-hit modifiers, A should probably go for a swing at the weapon arm or lower legs (in case B has a shield), as this adds another die.

Case 2: A does not attack, but evade/parry whatever, seeing that B will try to score. One die will likely not save his hide, though.

Yes. Scaring B into defending as outlined above is probably the better defense.

In essence: What good does keeping the initiative do if you get whacked anyway

The way I see it, overextending yourself and not bringing your opponent down is a bad thing. Right? I know this is the case IRL, and I hope the rules say so, as well.

I think you just proved that point with your example.

[Dain]

Regarding the one die left situation, am I missing something here? I thought that initiative was not a choice (except on initial approach) and that you could ONLY switch if you defend better than the incoming attack...and that ties and failures left the defender "off balance" or inappropriately positioned for attacking so that the defender HAD to continue to defend. I'm new to the system here, so please let me know if that is not the case. So far as I've heard so far, you can't just announce you're tired of defending and go on the attack any time you want...you have to wait until you have more successes than the attacker (indicating you've finally gotten to an advantageous position where attacking is even possible).

[nsruf]

The defender has the option to forgo defending and attack as well, but he will go after his opponent. It's usually not a wise move, except against a very weak attack or if the defender is heavily armored.

[Dain]

Do you remember where you read that good sir nsruf? Because I can't find that anywhere and it seems to contradict a conversation I had via email with Jake not too long ago (granted this was concerning evasion, not parry, but the mechanics I think are similar):

My question to Jake in the email was:

When an attacker rolls the same number of successes as a defender during
a PARRY, the attacker retains initiative and continues attacking because the
defender "barely avoided the attack and is somewhat reeling or off balance."
What happens with ties when the defender evades instead of parrying? Since
there are multiple cases (full versus partial versus duck and weave), is the
answer the same for each type of evasion? Namely if I tie on a full evasion,
am I still stuck in combat because I barely avoided the attack and am
somewhat reeling or off balance, or do I get out of there? How about for
partial...on ties do I get to spend the 2 dice and take initiative? How
about on duck and weave, do I get the benefits on ties? I guess my real
question here is do I have to get MORE successes than the attacker to get
the benefits of evasion, or are ties good enough?

His response was:

A tie in combat always results in a narrow miss, leaving the aggressor with
initiative and the defender unharmed, but not improved. That goes for all
evasions, parries, blocks, and defensive maneuvers.

not trying to pick a fight here...just a newbie trying to get it all straight so I do it right when I get to the gaming table.

[Dain]

...nevermind, I found it. Page 77 of the current printing of TROS. The person having initiative attacks first (barring buying of initiative, etc,....) then if the other person is still capable after it is resolved then they may take their attack. I have NO IDEA who gets initiative on the following round in that situation...does anyone know?

[Valamir]

Also keep in mind that often you won't know exactly how many total dice your opponent has.  So just because the opponent kept 1 die, doesn't mean that you KNOW he has only 1 die left which makes betting your life on being able to survive it a very risky deal.

Combine that with the bonus die for attacking extremities, the threat of a luck point or two making sure the free attack actually hits, and the risk is even greater.

Further, the 1 die attack doesn't have to kill the opponent, just do enough shock to deplete the defenders die pool...a good time for an attack to an unhelmeted head.  Which *IF* 'A' launched a massive enough attack in the first exchange, may well have depleted B's pool quite abit already.

Also don't forget Reach penalties.
If A attacks B with big dice and hits, than the range is set to A's ideal.  If B is using a weapon of a different length then he's going to be losing dice on the reach difference.  This won't matter if B decides to defend against A's follow up 1 die attack, but if B decides to attack, he'll be losing dice to reach, which combined with shock from A's 1 die attack, might negate his simo attack altogether.


That said, if you're fighting a tank with high TO and heavy armor everywhere, and/or fighting with a low damage weapon...then saving just 1 die won't be enough, and you'll need to recognize that and save some number more.

[Brian Leybourne]

The person having initiative attacks first (barring buying of initiative, etc,....) then if the other person is still capable after it is resolved then they may take their attack. I have NO IDEA who gets initiative on the following round in that situation...does anyone know?

Whoever hit (assuming one hit and one missed). Otherwise award it to whoever hit the best (or missed the least pathetically). If you really can't work it out, have them throw initiative again.

Brian.

[nsruf]

Also keep in mind that often you won't know exactly how many total dice your opponent has.  So just because the opponent kept 1 die, doesn't mean that you KNOW he has only 1 die left which makes betting your life on being able to survive it a very risky deal.

Good point. Declaring few dice on the second exchange to goad your opponent into a counter attack and then feinting to the head with your remaining dice is nasty. I love how TROS combat is so much of a mind game:)