Pricing for adventures, a bit more difficult.

[coolblade]

I thought this deserved a separate topic other then the other pricing topics out there because after a bit of comparison of adventures published by top brands I find that their page count vs. price is different. For example: wizards published several 48 page adventures and priced them at 9.95. I am in the post production stage of a 56 page adventure and believe me if I was to compete with 9.95 I would be a substantial net loss. At 14.95 I can break even, with a little extra when selling direct, and at 16.95 I could break even if selling through distributors. My main sales will be internet driven so I don't have to worry about distributors at this point. Now, I have read through many of the pricing forums here and it has been commented that gamers don't tend to mind up to a $5 increment price difference. Using that notion I would think I would be okay at 14.95 but again from comparing page count of published adventures and published core and supplement books it seems that adventures are worth less. Has anyone here published an adventure? Any comment or suggestions would be much appreciated. Also I should note that this adventure comes with a 17" by 11" full color map so I don't feel like 14.95 is over priced for this product and that my break even analysis envolves 400 qty print runs that will 'hopfully' sale out within one quarter.

[Clay]

This may not match with your own vision of the product, but have you considered distributing your product strictly as a PDF file?  That would cut your production costs down considerably and improve your profit margins.  If you're really determined to ship a printed product, you might also try something like lulu.com that reduces your up front commitment on print runs.

I don't see a big retail market for single adventures, possibly because the profit margins are too low.  Chasium has done pretty well with books of adventures at $20 for four adventures (or sometimes as many as 10 short adventures).  Given the competition, I'm wondering how you intend to compete.  What's so special about your product that justifies spending the price of three adventures that are each three or four play sessions in length?  I'm not asking this to be critical, but because potential customers are going to ask these questions before shelling out the money.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Clay, the Chaosium may not be a very good example. Their "adventure supplement" publishing method throughout the 1980s was an economic disaster, which is one reason why The Chaosium split into four smaller companies with much more modest publishing strategies.

White Wolf has been more successful through publishing "adventures" which are essentially complete short stories for the characters to participate in, and which also may be bought as short stories rather than as tools for play (I suspect this is more common). These publications also run a decided second-place in their strategy relative to splat-books, which are basically catalogues of thematic and logistic setting details.

Best,
Ron

[Clay]

This is correct Ron, and I was thinking more of some of the products published in the mid 1990's.  But unless I'm mistaken the bulk of their revenue still comes from sale of the core book and major supplements, so they might not be a good place to look for a successful adventure publishing model.  That doesn't change the question that will be in the customer's mind though, because I can still go to my local game store and pick up a copy of Unseen Masters, and it is a legitimate competitor for my consumer dollar.

[coxcomb]

Also I should note that this adventure comes with a 17" by 11" full color map

This sounds like the source of the dilemma. I imagine the map is really pricy to print. Thing is, color maps have historically been the domain of larger sourcebooks and (more commonly) boxed sets.

The map needs to be seen as a selling point by the consumer. This is hard because, in my experience, players look to published adventures for one-shots. In that case, they don't care if there is a swanky map.

Maybe you can expand your product a bit and sell it as a mini-setting? I think people are much more likely to buy something that has background and hooks for several adventures than for a single adventure.

Whatever you do, you should be very clear about the benefits of your product. If a list of the top five or so benefits doesn't distinguish you from similar products, you may need some retooling.

[jdagna]

Just a few thoughts here, for whatever you find them to be worth:

First, I've been watching sales of my own campaign book compared to my core book and GM screen.  Basically, for every 8 core books I sell, I move 5 GM Screens and 1 campaign book.  I'm not sure how representative these numbers are, but I'm pretty sure my campaign book doesn't suck.

Second, I'm fairly certain that having the GM screen and campaign book increases my core book sales slightly.  So it may be worth having even if no one actually buys it.  Since I put out the screen and campaign at the same time, I can't really say whether one is more effective for this than the other, just that people like to see "support for the product" even if they don't always buy the support.

Third, if you want an 11x17 map, have you considered using the cover as the map?  It's a little unorthodox, but I know cover art is a big expense for book production and a big pretty map with some unobtrusive title and other elements might do very nicely.  It would depend somewhat on your binding method, but at that size, I'm assuming you intend to do saddle stitching?

[Pramas]

I thought this deserved a separate topic other then the other pricing topics out there because after a bit of comparison of adventures published by top brands I find that their page count vs. price is different. For example: wizards published several 48 page adventures and priced them at 9.95. I am in the post production stage of a 56 page adventure and believe me if I was to compete with 9.95 I would be a substantial net loss. At 14.95 I can break even, with a little extra when selling direct, and at 16.95 I could break even if selling through distributors.

We've been selling $14.95 64-page books for several years and no one has said boo about it. I think you could easily charge $14.95 for a 56 page adventure with a poster map. In fact, I'd recommend you go with $16.95 and make a point of playing up the map.

At the end of the day you have to price your stuff so it makes sense for you. You can go crazy comparing your prices to other folks. Necromancer Games, for instance, released a 96 page adventure for $11.95 and Privateer did several 64 page books for $9.95. If that works for them, great, but that kind of pricing was never going to work for us.

You really want to give yourself at least the chance of making some money.

[KeithBVaughn]

The idea of saddle stitching of the book is a good one. I will add a further suggestion. Saddle stitch the pages of the adventure. For the cover, simply fold it and put the booklet into it.  Shrink wrap the resulting packet and if you planned right your "buy me" cover art & back blurb should be on one side with your map on the interior.

One suggestion on any adventure, have things in it that are useful after the adventure is played: more equipment, expansion of a segment of the rules, NPCs or something that enhances the value of the packet.

Best of Luck,

Keith B. Vaughn

[coolblade]

Its actually 3 adventures with each adventure having an avg play time of 12 hours. Its part of a D20, Rolemaster/HARP campaign setting thats being sold as PDF's but the adventure is being sold in print to build branding and visibility and the profit margin is expected to be low. The reason the map is being sold with the adventure is to encourage people who enjoy the PDFs campaign setting to purchase this adventure and get the map. It should also be mentioned that this mini-campaign is treasure oriented and this map is in fact a treasure map which will act as an effective play aid and will make the adventure sell better on impulse buys. I'm actually only putting out adventures the first year (as far as printed products go). I want to put our 4 printed adventures and have them reasonably priced to allow as many people as possible to purchase them and later recognize my companies name so when I put out something like a system or real campaign setting I will already have a recognizable name and hence make it easier to push the higher priced products. I should also mention that using this marketing method I do not expect to make any profit the first year which is okay.

[coolblade]

Third, if you want an 11x17 map, have you considered using the cover as the map?  It's a little unorthodox, but I know cover art is a big expense for book production and a big pretty map with some unobtrusive title and other elements might do very nicely.  It would depend somewhat on your binding method, but at that size, I'm assuming you intend to do saddle stitching?

Actually the cover art is done, and the binding is to be perfect binding. I'm not sparing any expense when it comes to quality. I am doing this as a business not a vanity press, I am not even going to author my own products. I want people out there to know that they are getting quality. Quality artwork, quality content, quality product support. If I can manage that, and just break even for my first year or two I seriously believe that people will recognize that just because I'm an indy publisher that doesn't mean I cant produce product up to par or better then the gigantic corporations out there. The more visibility I have, the more products will sale, the more products I sale, the more I can afford for higher print runs, the higher the print runs, the cost of goods sold decreases. This strategy ofcoarse will take a lot of time and will not make much if any money at all at first but my living conditions, and job can support it. Back to the point at hand. I think I may go with Pramas' advice and go with 16.95.

[Paul Czege]

I am not even going to author my own products....I seriously believe that people will recognize that just because I'm an indy publisher that doesn't mean I cant produce product up to par or better then the gigantic corporations out there.

From http://www.indie-rpgs.com/about/">About the Forge:

"What is an independent role-playing game? Our main criterion is that the game is owned by its author, or creator-owned."[/list:u]Paul

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Let me reinforce Paul's point a little, and I hope this isn't too terrible news ...

This forum is absolutely and only reserved for discussions of games which are authored by their owners. Other games must be discussed and developed elsewhere.

In fact, some publishers who have switched from author-ownership to freelance-driven ownership realized that they had moved away from Forge territory, and gave up their specialty forums voluntarily (which I greatly appreciate, in terms of their integrity).

Best,
Ron

[coolblade]

Well considering the main author of the products happens to be my friend and part owner of the company so I'm not too worried about not qualifying for the indy title.

[Clay]

I would like to mention that even if you do decide that this isn't the appropriate forum, there are people here who can help you set up something of your own.  I suspect that Clinton is perfectly willing to take money in exchange for webmastering services, and I've been known to do it in the past as well.

[coolblade]

o.k