Wanna look at some gamist design bits of mine? (long)

[Callan S.]

I've got a few questions on a gamist system that I'm putting together (One I mentioned I was going to do in another post).

I'll start with its goals, to give a bigger picture:
* To be accessible to a four year old. This isn't a commercial attempt, so I thought I'd try and aim at something I could do with my son, or induct older kids/adult newbies with a rapidly learnt system.
* Limited GM power, fully/highly avoiding reliance on end user management via peer esteem mechanisms. The way I'd prefer to put this is 'less personal politics, more game!'
* Mastery of the system, either by player or GM, would take some time. Always a grail for a gamist system.
* Generic magical fantasy environment. Escapist enough to be a game, but with concepts familiar enough through appearances in mass media to grasp easily.

Okay, so far lets looks at some odds and sods already together.

COMBAT
Aiming for the four year old, I'm going to run with a mechanism of something like 'If you ten sider rolls a 4,5,6,7,8 or 9, you hit!'. Yes, rather than just say 4+. Bit of an educational element there. I'm also considering that 0 on the ten sider means zero. I don't want to inadvertently teach him that 0 is the same as ten, and it's easier to explain to newbies.

For some rare creatures, a 3 might hit as well. And for a few rarer, a 4 might not hit!

But really, behind the scenes that dice range is really a reflection of something like:
You combat skill is: 3
The vast majority of badguys have a skill of 2 and you need that plus the average of a ten sider to hit them (5). So your target number is 7. Actually the average of a ten sider which is considered 0 to 9 is four, so this might get fiddled with latter. Regardless, this is just to say there IS a formula behind that previously stated range.

Personal Reflexes in Combat
Okay, the next bit. I've gotten the impression that personal reflex skills being used in a system is a disliked. Regardless, I'm using it. I've done dice rolling with my son. I've seen the slightly confused, unfulfilled expression in his eyes when I say something like 'Well, last time that number meant you missed him, but this numbers so different and you got him, this different number should mean you feel happy and fulfilled.'. Yeah, right.

So, what I plan is to have cards (with figures drawn on them) there, about 5cm wide. The idea is that you have to roll the dice and try to knock them down. Regardless of whether you knock one down or not, consult that number range before. If your roll was in it, your fine, if not, the monster hit you (even if it got knocked down, it shows it got in one hit). You take one point of damage.

Okay, now the cards are placed upright roughly 30cm behind a line. The line represents where your supposed to let go of the dice, so it’s a challenge. Okay, now this is important and explains why I said 'roughly'; the system is designed around you always hitting with this. It's not supposed to be a big challenge, its mostly there to engage you, as you try and knock down the targets. This is a tangible result my son can appreciate. Also in his enthusiasm, he will definitely keep throwing it past the line, not paying attention to what he's doing. A design goal is that enthusiasm is FAR more important than maintaining the sanctity of this little mechanic. So its all based around always hitting, because that way the system wont be skewed by an incorrectly done user reflex checks.

On the flip side, ie missing a lot, I think that after two user attempts to hit, if the dice roll comes up in the range, the creature takes a point of damage.

Speaking of that, most only have one HP of life, so being knocked down is it for them. This also caters to newbie/son expectations that if I hit something and it falls down, it stays down. Some other creatures that are tougher are represented by several cards, each of which represents an attack type (ie, if you fight a dragon, you might have one card for its breath, one for its claws, one for its tale. You knock out each like they were separate monsters). Some rare creatures have two HP, and thus are placed upright again after being knocked down. 2 HP'ers being rare amongst all the 1 HP'ers, this should produce more of a 'whoa' effect than frustration.

Now, another thing to keep things simple is that every attack roll each player attempts will cause him to suffer damage if the roll isn't in his range. Yeah, this is like the monsters have as many attacks as there are players, but it makes things simple. It also means exact turn order isn't as important, if excess enthusiasm occurs. Also, if your dice roll doesn't fall in its range, you take one point per attacker in front of you, up to three points (in the case of that dragon example, its like all its attacks hit you).

Note that the players PC's have a butt load of hit points compared to all these one HP'ers, like ten or something. Newbies and the young don't ask questions about this sort of thing like jaded old timer gamers do.

Man, that took too long
That was supposed to be the simple bit, and it is (except to explain in a rough behind the curtains way).

GM power/role/game
Sigh, originally I had planned on an infinite GM power, tempered by victory requirements. Now, instead, I fall back to a mechanism I'd actually developed before I proposed that which is a lot simpler and easier to manage. Its an infinite power, limited palette system.

Basically the GM can paint the challenges of the world through a hand of cards he's drawn randomly. This is like his only having a limited palette to work from. The idea is that the GM still presents world and events he wants to, but to effect the PC's he can only use these cards and the effects on them (each time you use one, you discard it and can discard another if you want, then bring your hand back up to full). This almost is a subgame of its own, where the GM is pits his narrative ingenuity to still present the events are close to what he originally intended, with the hand he's been given.

Examples of these challenges include pit traps, skeletons, wind storm, etc. Each has exact rules on how they work. When doing things like traps, etc, the GM goes through each player, so they all get an equal amount of grief. Though I was thinking some sort of low percentage chance might be there each time that he could break that order and begin it again on any player he chooses. With the actual monster cards, each player gets one baddie each (or something like that).

Also, the GM can lay two of these cards face down in front of him, and then narrate some sort of game world choice. Pointing at one as he describes, for example, a cave they can go in, and the other for a swamp they could travel through instead. The choice the group makes then chooses the card. The actual narration he gives doesn't have to give away the nature of the cards. Actually, this is a point of faith in the system, eg that the GM wont describe one path as solid, then it turns out to have a pit trap. That sort of BS rather than having some event consistency.

Anyway, each of these challenges have a plot increase on them. Once they've been played, the plot counter increases and, ta da, once you get to a pre set amount, the sessions complete and you've won if your PC's still alive.

The actual rule book will also have to make it clear to players that the GM will be playing against them in between two extremes. Prior to the game, the GM must decide how much he himself wants to devote to evoking a particular events in a game world, and how much he wants to devote to greasing the PC's. If players want more of one particular way, it should be discussed equally before game (god, yeah, creative agenda has snuck in regardless).

The players powers
Oh god, this is the hardest!

Now, in light of keeping this newbie/kid friendly, PC's start with NO ability other than to do avoid one point of damage if the dice roll rolls in its range. That's it. Nothing else to learn. Everything else comes one at a time. Each time a challenge is finished, a treasure/ability chart is rolled. Some fair distribution mechanism is used to distribute them through the party. Each of these treasures (or suddenly realised ability) has its own little rules that begin to allow the player to really engage the game fully. Eg, you don't have to learn about shields right at the start, you learn about them if you find one. A learn as you go system.

On creating these, the only thing I can think of is this: Every time I create a challenge the GM can play, I'm going to create one item that can help stave it off (with a passed save), one item that if used with the former will stave it off without a pass and finally one more that if used with all these, staves it off and does/gives something nifty and system useful for the PC.

Further, each of these items have modes. Eg, you don't just have a shield, you have a shield and you can use it in a few mode like A: Held above head (helps against 'rocks fall, everybody dies attacks' or flying creatures) B: Braced against the body (helps in normal combat) C: Held casual (might help in combat, helps if suddenly falling down a tunnel slide).

After writing in the details, there's a box for each mode that the player shades with a pencil. When the GM drops an applicable challenge on them, the player can show their PC was prepared for it. And of course, combo's of modes between equipment/ability allow even better management of challenges. From the narrative (especially in games where the GM isn't trying hard to grease the PC's), the player can learn what to expect and figure out a mode combo to combat it. He can also try and guess what sort of cards the GM has currently, too, setting up modes against the worst cards that haven't reared their ugly faces yet.

For kids like my son, I think special rules for kids avoid the complication here by saying for the young all modes are considered to be happening at once. However, each time a bit of gear/ability is tested this way, there's X chance its broken or strained and lost. This gives a simple high (Yay, I got a shield, I'm okay Mr GM)/low (aww, its used up, hope I find another one) entertainment instead of min maxing fun.


There! I hope I was coherent enough, but I don't want to get RSI and then not write the damn thing itself! ;)
Really my greatest concern is the player part.  Does this sound fun? Does it sound fun for more than one session?

[Mike Holmes]

So, is the player part of the game only to respond to the GM created challenges? Are there any ways for the players to take part somehow in creating the challenges? I mean, when in a dungeon, can the player look left, and see one challenge, and look right, and see another, and then choose between the two?

Can you give a short sample of play?

BTW, I have a three year old boy who may be interested in playing soon. :-)

Mike

[Harrek]

I agree with Mike; I'd like to see a mock play writeup.

One thing that struck me about your ability system: it is very reminiscent of the Zelda games. (For those unaware, the Zelda series are popular videogame RPGs and one of Nintendo's flagship game lines. They are also exceptionally well designed.)

In Zelda, character improvement occurs almost entirely by acquiring equipment, and said equipment doesn't merely enhance what he can already do: each new item adds a new ability. It's not the 'golfbag full of +5 swords' approach.

That ties directly to the 'dungeons' that need to be solved. Until you get the hookshot, frex (which lets you climb onto high ledges), you can't even enter the Cliffs of Peril (or whatever). There's a very tight interplay of challenge and reward. The reward is frequently a new piece of equipment, which 'unlocks' more of the gameworld for exploration.

I highly recommend checking them out for ideas.

[Callan S.]

So, is the player part of the game only to respond to the GM created challenges? Are there any ways for the players to take part somehow in creating the challenges? I mean, when in a dungeon, can the player look left, and see one challenge, and look right, and see another, and then choose between the two?
*snip*

Yeah, I had that tucked away in the description above:

Also, the GM can lay two of these cards face down in front of him, and then narrate some sort of game world choice. Pointing at one as he describes, for example, a cave they can go in, and the other for a swamp they could travel through instead. The choice the group makes then chooses the card.

How often the system should rule it into play, is a good question. At the GM's whim? Or at some sort of ratio, X amount of choices for every Y amount of forced challenge. Or choices presented are worth more to the GM, somehow, than continual forced challenges.

Also, it also depends on the GM style. I forgot to mention in the description that between challenges being laid down, I imagine a lot of narration by both GM and players going on. Essentially this is just talking between turns as it has no system effect...unless the GM decides that something the player said deserves a particular challenge played. In fact he might play a different one than he intended to, simply because of the talking/narration. It'll depend on what the group talked about before game. Regardless, this is also a type of choice, depending on how much the GM takes the narration of players into account, though obviously one that works more on faith than hard mechanics.

Anyway, good call asking for a mock play write up, I'll do one once I'm off line and get back soon.

[Callan S.]

A mock up of play

The set up
The GM shuffles the challenge cards and draws himself a hand of five
The players start with a blank character sheet, apart from the dice range (defend on a 4,5,6,7,8 or 9) for their character and hit point counter which are identical between them (ten points, perhaps).

Before play begins
The GM's hand is something like: Skeletons, swim check, pit trap, giant rats and wilderness survival check. Each of these has the full details you need to play them within the system, without ad libing.

Now, before the first turn of system resolution even begins, the GM starts narrating to the players and they either interrupt or respond at his pauses, to narrate back to him. This has some rules of its own. Basically you can say anything, but only challenges and rolled rewards actually effect your characters resources. So players can say they find a million gold, but they don't add it to their characters actual gold total (only a rolled reward can give you this). The GM could say a trap lops a characters head off in a moment, but the characters actual resources (life or HP) aren't effected in the least, only challenge cards can do this. Since only system effects can effect resources (pure narrative assertion can not), player and GM alike can make as tall a story as they like without fear of making the use of a system pointless by introducing unlimited resources or automatic resource loss (In other words, freeform). After all, a million gold is countered by saying its all counterfeit, or gets stolen a second latter. Regardless, weather the gold or the head lop is countered narratively, it doesn't effect system resources (though it does make narration more fluid, for example, for players to counter head lop narration by the GM by saying 'Well, it looked that way, but really X happened…')

However, narration is evocative if the GM narrates in synergy with the challenges he has in his hands.
'In your epic quest, you begin in a graveyard at midnight, looking for an inscription'.
Naturally the GM narrates this because he wants to introduce the skeleton card he has. He could just say 'your in a empty room, then skeletons attack (then goes on to play the card)', but he's decided he wants to do more than that.

Too and fro between the GM and players this narration goes (perhaps not for long, as the players sense graveyard = skeletons, and keep their side of it short), until the GM drops the damn skeleton card. The first turn begins.

Okay, so the skeletons are drawn. One card is placed in front of each player. Going to each in turn, the GM tells them to roll and try and hit that card to knock it down. The first guy does, hitting it the first time, but his dice roll isn't in range and his character suffers 1 HP of damage. The skeleton got in one blow before being destroyed!

The GM then goes to the second guy, who rolls terribly, missing the skeleton twice. Luckily though his dice roll is in his range both times, so no damage. The GM informs him that after two attempts all he now needs to do is make a dice roll that's within his characters range to destroy the skeleton, even if his dice roll misses the target. He rolls again, missing the target again (sad), and it isn't in range so he takes one point of damage! He then rolls again, misses the target for a fourth time (he curses having to be so crap for this mock up play), but his roll is within its range. The skeleton is destroyed at last.

Note: Only once the first players PC gets special abilities can he help someone else complete their battle. It's all mano e skeletono at the start!

The challenge over, the PC groups plot score is increased. At 30 points (or whatever) the games over! They just need to survive till then!

Treasure time! These being beginning PC's, special increased treasure reward rates occur, giving them twice as much stuff the first time, so they have some toys to play with. They can actually receive treasure or abilities at this point. It might sound odd to suddenly become more focused with a sword or more hawkeyed, for example, when entering dangerous territory…then again, it might not. Regardless, the treasure roll they make is in the open for the GM to see. They then consult the list and secretly write down what they receive. The GM writes down the roll (making them accountable latter), but will only know what they got if he has extensive memorisation of the big treasure/ability lists. Well find out what the PC's received latter in this mock up.

The GM then declares he's going to ditch another card as well (which he can only do after playing a card). He secretly gets rid of the swim card, which just doesn't fit his narration plans at all.

The GM then brings his hand up to five cards again.

The first turn is over.

Again, it's back to narration between GM and players. In fact, the GM had intended to play the pit trap card by itself (he was going to narrate things so a rotten rope bridge is crossed. A plank breaks, etc. Basically a pit trap). However, the bridge is over an old sewer and because of the location one player narrates he's going to check some heaps of garbage nearby (garbage heaps he introduced himself). The GM decides this is a really fluid time to present two cards the players's can choose between. So he lays the pit trap and giant rats cards, face down, on the table. With finger on the bridge one, he narrates the rickety bridge. Then with a finger on the other, he describes the festering rubbish heaps. Keep in mind, the GM doesn't have to present choices which gel with player desires. He could just play the pit trap by itself, or play pit trap and wilderness survival check (or whatever combo, even if they don't fit the action). It depends how much the GM wants to present an enjoyable journey and win admiration Vs trying to grease the PC's and win the game.

Giving a choice gives the GM an advantage (cough, haven't hammered it out yet, but perhaps fewer plot points for PC's if they get to make a choice on their challenge).

The PC chooses the garbage option, pointing at that card. The GM flips it and…the player smiles. He shows that the treasure he found before was a magic flute, and he's got it in charm rat mode. The PC's win the plot advancement of this challenge with zero risk to their resources/lives. In fact, they get to roll treasure now, increasing their resources/options after zero loss!

'Curses!', thinks the GM, 'But…I'll trick him latter, I reckon. I'll wait till it looks like I have another rat card and describe the situation as it its quite likely to have rats but it'll be something that needs that flute in another mode (yet makes sense, so I seem masterful rather than just a BS'er). And right now, I bet he doesn't have a shield, so I'll just have to use this 'rocks fall, everybody might die' card!'

Such will be the evil plots going through the GM's head. Meanwhile the players will be setting/changing the special modes of their abilities/treasures as the story unfolds, to maximise and combo them. The more they can count the cards/guess GM tactics and the more the GM puts story/winning admiration ahead of just winning, the more they can do this by listening, planning and inserting subtle narrations of their own.

And so on, till the plot is unravelled or no survivors stand.

[Callan S.]

One bump to see if this recieves any further attention. If not, I kiss this thread goodnight.

[Ron Edwards]

Callan and everyone,

Please do not thread-bump at the Forge, ever.

This thread is now closed.

Thanks,
Ron