Bought HB.. Yipee.. Err how the?

[Lorenzo Rubbo-Ferraro]

Hi everybody.

Bought the Hero's Book the other day. YIPPEE !!!

I really dig it and can't wait for HeroQuest (have it on order).

I have a question if anyone could answer please. The Hero's Book doesn't have a great deal of info on the system. Since the system scales infinitely, I'm wondering how you view things "relatively" and how augmenting works in this regard.

To explain, what I mean is, the HB gives a few examples of Ability Ratings and what we might find at various levels. It says that at 17 you are proficient, 5M3 is extraordinary/heroic. Let's say, to use the industry standard, you have really developed your fireball, to the point where it can wipe out an entire village! Would this be about 4 or 5 masteries? Now let's compare that to your relationship to your friend, Bob. Bob is just your mate, your pal. The AR of your relationship might be 17. Or, for arguments sake, let's use the most extreme example of the love of your life. The woman you are madly in love with. What AR level would you have with her? Could it be 5 masteries like your fireball. If so how does a thing like "human love" increase to a godlike mastery level of 5? And if it doesn't, or, taking the example of Bob, wouldn't using your relationship with Bob as an augment (for your fireball when applicable) be fairly negligible?

I'm obviously missing something. Maybe It's because I don't understand how magic OR relationships work. How are things relative? Where and how, if ever, does a relationship level end? I guess i'm use to "the other style" of RPing in that I can see how one can increase skills/magic/power indefinately but am a bit lost at how to do this with things like traits or relationships.

Thankyou.
Lorenzo

[Mark Galeotti]

Hi Lorenzo,

HB gives a few examples of Ability Ratings and what we might find at various levels. It says that at 17 you are proficient, 5M3 is extraordinary/heroic. Let's say, to use the industry standard, you have really developed your fireball, to the point where it can wipe out an entire village! Would this be about 4 or 5 masteries?

Well, 10W4 is 'Petty God' level: the kind of magic that could do what you say isn't really envisaged as an individual power in HQ, it's more something a group of priests/mages could do (and for that matter, I don't know how many 'industry standard' systems allow you to blast a whole village at once!).

Or, for arguments sake, let's use the most extreme example of the love of your life. The woman you are madly in love with. What AR level would you have with her? Could it be 5 masteries like your fireball.

HB p9 says that a relationship at 5W2 is "an all-consuming passion, driving your entire life." Anything higher than this would be the stuff of legends and/or a dangerous and unhealthy obsession!

If so how does a thing like "human love" increase to a godlike mastery level of 5? And if it doesn't, or, taking the example of Bob, wouldn't using your relationship with Bob as an augment (for your fireball when applicable) be fairly negligible?

Yes, at these kinds of levels, most earthly passions are pretty insignificant -- and so they should be. Normal human relationships will become far less important when a character is essentially on the way to godhood.

The point is, though, that under most circumstances, a character will not have abilities at that kind of level. If you are trying desperately to build a shelter for your family for the night, using your Rural Survival 5W, then your Responsible 17 and Love Family 20 together giving you a +4 are quite significant.

This isn't just a rules construct. If I think of the things that I as a person am really good at, I tend to do them pretty well regardless (within reason) of mood or whether I am specifically motivated. On the other hand, having some particular reason to accomplish something is likely to make much more of a difference if it is a task at which I am not proficient, because I will be putting particular effort and commitment into it.

Hope this helps!

All the best

Mark

[Lorenzo Rubbo-Ferraro]

Thanks for the reply Mark.

By "industry standard" I meant using the old fireball example - but yes it is whopping big one! I guess I was assuming that magic in HQ could quite rapidly expand to these levels, if players pumped hero points into it, perhaps I was mistaken. How does a munchkin power gamer approach HQ? Wouldn't he attempt to "max out" his combat magic? What stops him from wanting to just increase his "kick butt" AR?

Now that you mention page 9 I do recall that. If 5W2 is then pretty standard for "peaking" in traits/relationships/fame/skill etc.. as p.9 eludes too then what would go substantially beyond that level?

I probably should just wait till I get the HQ book!

[buserian]

Hi Lorenzo, glad you are so excited by the book.

Thanks for the reply Mark.

By "industry standard" I meant using the old fireball example - but yes it is whopping big one! I guess I was assuming that magic in HQ could quite rapidly expand to these levels, if players pumped hero points into it, perhaps I was mistaken. How does a munchkin power gamer approach HQ? Wouldn't he attempt to "max out" his combat magic? What stops him from wanting to just increase his "kick butt" AR?

Now that you mention page 9 I do recall that. If 5W2 is then pretty standard for "peaking" in traits/relationships/fame/skill etc.. as p.9 eludes too then what would go substantially beyond that level?

Orpheus in the Underworld comes to mind.

Hercules' wife's passion being so great that she is stupid enough to go to one of his enemies for a love potion that, in the end, kills him.

Lancelot, Guenivere, and Arthur -- their respective loves and passions brought down one of the greatest legendary kingdomes ever imagined.

Romeo and Juliet

The point here is that 5W2 or so is the _normal_ limit for most _normal_ people. Heroes are not normal, and they can easily have love or passion much greater than the norm. Love or passion great enough that they are willing to go to Hell to rescue their love; kill every living being in the land to save their kingdom; die for their true love, whom they have known for but a few days.

Heroic passion = epic story.

buserian

[Mark Galeotti]

Hi Lorenzo

How does a munchkin power gamer approach HQ? Wouldn't he attempt to "max out" his combat magic? What stops him from wanting to just increase his "kick butt" AR?

He can. Then he gets totally screwed over when he realises he has no real defense when the wily trader uses his Bamboozle 10W to make him trade his booty for some 'magic beans' which are anything but; and even before he's reached for his Sword of Brutal Killing, the cocky kid has used his Run Away 5W and Mock Warrior 20 to reduce him to tears; and the Chieftain has used his Commanding Presence to persuade him not to go off on that adventure but to stay and guard the flock; and all the other warriors are laughing at him, because his mother has used her Henpeck 10W to get him to wear that multi-coloured scarf she knitted him while on patrol 'because it gets cold of a morning'...

One of the beauties of HQ is as an aid to re-educating munchkins!

If 5W2 is then pretty standard for "peaking" in traits/relationships/fame/skill etc.. as p.9 eludes too then what would go substantially beyond that level?

I probably should just wait till I get the HQ book!

Well, of course! But actually you won't find much more -- indeed, I added the 'calibration' notes in HB precisely because they were missing in HQ. In general, you can always re-calbrate things yourself. If you want grand passions to be more important, then say

1W = quite important ("I like her. I'll buy her a drink")
1W2 = very important ("She's my best friend. I'll lend her the money.")
1W3 = true passion ("Marry me!")
1W4+ = total, consuming passion (saying "I would bring her the moon and the stars" and meaning it literally!)

All the best

Mark

[Lorenzo Rubbo-Ferraro]

He can. Then he gets totally screwed over when he realises he has no real defense when the wily trader uses his Bamboozle 10W to make him trade his booty for some 'magic beans' which are anything but; and even before he's reached for his Sword of Brutal Killing, the cocky kid has used his Run Away 5W and Mock Warrior 20 to reduce him to tears; and the Chieftain has used his Commanding Presence to persuade him not to go off on that adventure but to stay and guard the flock; and all the other warriors are laughing at him, because his mother has used her Henpeck 10W to get him to wear that multi-coloured scarf she knitted him while on patrol 'because it gets cold of a morning'...

HEHEHE!!!

oh thanks for that Mark - your re-calibration makes sense.

Well that munchkin is me ;-) (well at least what I assume my players will be) Yes I do need a little re-educating, and HQ is doing a damn good job of it too! I'm just very fond of combat - but not the typical type you find in most RPG's. In fact I was a little dissappointed to find a whole page in the HB dedicated to healing and recovery. I mean you get in a scuffle, you win or lose, if you get a little roughed up, lose your leg or arm, there are plenty of healers around, build a bridge and get over it, geez. I mean you survive or you don't. If you lose a limb you may not be as good at swinging that sword anymore - but hey, it's character building. This whole business of counting days and healers rolls - erk! I just couldn't give a damn.

mmyyesss HeroQuest is deeply satifying my battle requirements.

P.S. Are you saying the HQ doesn't give you much more rules-wise than the HB?

[Mark Galeotti]

P.S. Are you saying the HQ doesn't give you much more rules-wise than the HB?

Oh no, just that it lacks anything much more on the very specific issue of how to calibrate personal relationships

All the best

Mark

[Scripty]

Hi Lorenzo

How does a munchkin power gamer approach HQ? Wouldn't he attempt to "max out" his combat magic? What stops him from wanting to just increase his "kick butt" AR?

He can. Then he gets totally screwed over when he realises he has no real defense when the wily trader uses his Bamboozle 10W to make him trade his booty for some 'magic beans' which are anything but...

My own experience with players trying to munch out on HeroQuest was a little different but supports Mark's end result. The munchkins that played in my group a while back tried a number of ways to tweak out (and even break) the HeroQuest system.

1) One guy tried to take as many skills as he possibly could. We're talking a Swiss Army knife here. He was screwed because, even though he had a broad number of skills useful in a variety of different circumstances, none of them were all that high in ranking. So, his character rarely had to use an unskilled rating of 6, but pretty much everything he had  (outside of keywords) was at 13.

2) Another guy tried in one campaign to have really broad abilities, like "Strong" and then have it apply to EVERYTHING. This guy was more successful at munchkining but then I asked the question as to what he meant by strong. Did it mean that he could lift things or that he could endure things? What did he mean? He didn't like this at all, because he wanted strong to mean that he could lift things, bash things, climb up long distances and endure wounds and damage. I told him that was fine but he'd have to make Strong a keyword and list those as abilities beneath the keyword Strong. I don't mind having PCs get some flexible abilities but it didn't seem fair that this player was abusing even the very definition of Strong to cover things like endurance, toughness, and melee combat. This guy really wasn't happy with this, at all.

3) Same guy as #2. Different campaign. This time he tried to take a broad ability at the highest rating he could possibly go. He did. His character sucked. He tried to say it was my fault but it really wasn't. When he was dropping all his points into "Undead" why the heck should he get a bonus against a con-artist trying to hoodwink him? What's wrong with him having to roll a default of 13 because he had no cognitive skills listed and no personality or relationship traits with which to augment. When his "undead" talent came into play, he ruled. When it didn't (such as when he had to actually deal with people in the setting rather than kill them), his character was a sock puppet. By this time, the player was just a real wretch. He wrecked the game and I still can't sit in the same room with him.

So...

The biggest mistake that munchkins make with HeroQuest, IME, is by assuming (like in all other RPGs) that skills and magic are KING and that relationships and personality are the red-headed stepchildren of the system. Magic's good, don't get me wrong, but it's still pretty limited. If you want to munch the HeroQuest system, you need to take as many personality traits and relationships as you can. Those are by far the most flexible abilities in the entire game. Think about how many more augments you could get out of Determined as opposed to Strong.

But munchkins, IME, won't take personality traits or relationships. They devalue such "soft" skills because they are ignorant of really how useful they are. I tried to re-educate munchkins. I thought (based on a good game session) that they were interested in this new type of game. It backfired. Take care in the re-education of munchkins.

Sometimes the hamster doesn't want to know it's running its legs off in a wheel.

Scott

[Lorenzo Rubbo-Ferraro]

Yeah wow, thanks for the posts. HQ seems to take a bit of "bend your head around", a little lateral thinking to role playing, but when you do, it becomes clearer that this is better, is a more satisfying gaming experience because it is a more wholesome, more encompassing approach.

The biggest mistake that munchkins make with HeroQuest, IME, is by assuming (like in all other RPGs) that skills and magic are KING and that relationships and personality are the red-headed stepchildren of the system.

I guess this is the crux of it.

Cheers.

[Harrek]

The amusing thing in HQ is that the munchkin route is to load up on personality traits and relationships - exactly the stuff of good roleplaying! You'll find you get more mileage (i.e. can augment in more situations) with those than with skills.

[Brand_Robins]

The amusing thing in HQ is that the munchkin route is to load up on personality traits and relationships - exactly the stuff of good roleplaying! You'll find you get more mileage (i.e. can augment in more situations) with those than with skills.

Oh yea. In the ShadowWorld HeroQuest game I play in, my character often manages to get a full mastery worth of augments from his relationships and personality traits. Of course, that also means that he's always being pushed to his limit, tugged about by conflicting loyalties, and generally in over his head -- but that's all good for the drama.

[Mike Holmes]

Yeah, we've been over this before. An ability like Determined is so broad in application as to almost make it suitable to be declared a broad abillity. I mean, what can't you apply that to as an augment? Given that many personality traits may come into play for any given conflict, the character who's "toughest" is usually the one who cares most about what's going on.

As for the scale issue, in general many thing seem to follow this more universal scale:

6 = llike everyone else who is completely unexceptional. Not "bad," per se, you just don't "have" a notable amount of this.
10 = (people don't usually include this level because it's rare) you are not precisely like everyone else in this ability, but people won't often notice the difference
13 = you have some of this but people will only barely notice
17 = you have the ability at a level that people associated with some group have the ability, but are otherwise unremarkable. One of "that" crowd.
1W = you're starting to stand out from some group in this ability. Starting.
10W = you definitely stand out as someone who has a strong ability, but there are still many like you.  
1W2 = you are one of the people that someone would think of as good or strong in something when asked
1W3 = you are the man. When people ask who is strongest in this suit, your name comes up. If they think that the ability is bad, at this point they'll start saying that you're obsessed.
1W4 = you are reknowned for your superhuman level of strength in this trait. Legends may be written.
1W5 = You are starting to be worshipped for your ability, or feared by populations.
1W6 = You now operate beyond the ken of men because of this ability. You might still be able to interact on some level, but they are mortals, and you definitely are not entirely.

So, you can see that a relationship at 5W2 is one where people would say something like, "Ah, yes, their love is like few others." At 5W3 one might say, instead, "Ah, yes, he's madly in love with her." Just like it might be said of a 5W2 Swordsman, "Few can match him," and at 5W3, "Other masters of the blade fear him."

Chris Edwards took a love ability at 5W2, as a flaw (I gave it to him for free). When he took it, I told him that, as his most potent ability, that it would drive his character wherever I pointed it. He said that was precisely what he wanted. It's been very fun to date, as it turns out that the girl he's so deeply in love with is actually Brand's character's girlfriend who used him to escape from captivity.

We left them last session locked in combat just after Chris' character discovered the fact. :-)

Mike

[Brand_Robins]

Chris Edwards took a love ability at 5W2, as a flaw (I gave it to him for free). When he took it, I told him that, as his most potent ability, that it would drive his character wherever I pointed it. He said that was precisely what he wanted. It's been very fun to date, as it turns out that the girl he's so deeply in love with is actually Brand's character's girlfriend who used him to escape from captivity.

This always cracks me up because he loves her more than I do (5w2 to 20) but she loves me more than him. Ha!

Of course, Thomas's Love 20n also does come out in play. When he finds out his lover is in danger he still gets freaky, still gets augments from the love, etc. However, as it isn't an over-riding obsession level it also isn't all consuming. As a matter of fact when she isn't around he flirts with evil priestesses and hawt bird-women. What happens with this love, which started out strong but not epic, will flow from a combination of what happens in play and where I chose to put my HPs to bump it up.

[Mike Holmes]

This always cracks me up because he loves her more than I do (5w2 to 20) but she loves me more than him. Ha!

Yeah, we'll see if it gets him killed or how it all turns out. One of the neat things is that, no matter how much he learns to hate her, he'll have to buy that Love down one point at a time to get rid of it. It'll be a love/hate relationship of tremendous proportions. Talk about enough rope to hang yourself with. :-)

What happens with this love, which started out strong but not epic, will flow from a combination of what happens in play and where I chose to put my HPs to bump it up.

And that's HQ in a nutshell. To me at least. Players deciding what's important enough to spend HP on. Victory now? Stronger love later? Or maybe a new love for another character? Only play will tell!



Mike