Sorcerer Reference, "lighter" Demons and Humanity

[jburneko]

So, anyone who knows me knows that I'm not really a big anime fan.  But a couple of months ago a friend of mine suggested that I check out a show called "Big O", which I think is the most unfortunate title in the world especially for someone like me who (at least knowingly) harbors almost all the negative stereotypes concerning anime.  This friend knows I really like the Batman cartoon and described "Big O" as Batman meets Robotech.  Rolling my eyes at the mention of giant robots I decided to check it out.

Within four episodes the giant robot thing stopped bothering me because it occured to me that they were being used (thematically), well, exactly like Old Ones.  They're a remenant of a forgotten civilization and really Do Not Belong Here.  What I began to realize while watching is that "Big O" is a Sorcerer story.  In fact it's the best 1:1 mapping between media for the game I've seen in a long time.  I find myself going, "Those two just spotted each other's telltales", or "Now, THERE's a fellow low on Humanity" and so forth.

I've seen episodes 18 through 26 (so, I know how it ends) and episodes 1 through 7.  What I like about it is that it demonstrates Humanity Loss without being a total bastard and demons that threaten Humanity without being totally evil and even down right sympathetic.

The way I see it Humanity is "personal identity."  The central character Roger Smith, is a Sorcerer with two demons Big O (his starting demon) and an android named Dorothy (who he comes to bind over the course of the first two episodes).  I particularly enjoyed the part where Dorothy is being used as a battery pack for one of the giant robots and while trying to save her Roger shouts "Just be who you are!"  Engendering a personal identity in something that (by human standards) shouldn't have one.

This is where I come to the major point of my post.  Dorothy is an incredibly sympathic character.  Sympathetic to the point that my girlfriend considers her a better romantic match for Roger than the rival human female Angel.  But I maintain that every time Roger goes out of his way to protect Dorothy as an individual with an identity he's putting his Humanity on the line.  In fact there are a few episodes where Roger goes out of his way to engender or acknowledge the personal indentity of androids while simultaneously failing to do so in his fellow humans.

So, that I don't get completely wrapped up in the problems of cross media interpretation the whole thing made me think of Ron's Demon Cops mini-supplement.  If I'm not mistaken Demon Cops was intended as an attempt at "lighter" Sorcerer where the Demons lean more towards colorful sidekicks rather than dark horrors man was not meant to toy with.  Humanity is "To protect and serve."  Am I right in thinking that if a Sorcerer goes out of his way to "protect and serve" a particularly sympathetic demon that would still constitute a humanity loss, particurly if it meant violating the rights of say, a deplorable human villain?

You see, it is this Humanity subtlety that I think prevents Sorcerer from being Sim (Humanity is GOOD, if you want to be THE HERO, do stuff that's in line with Humanity) or Gamist (sometimes "winning" relative to Situation and even Character can run through either humanity gaining or losing situations).

I think this is a subtely that trips some players up.  I've noticed a slight trend among players I've played with to object if I call for a Humanity Loss roll when their actions run counter to the humanity definition but are viewed by the group as fairly heroic or morally sound.  It seems that there is a desire on the part of some players for Humanity Gain to always correspond with GOOD, HEROIC or even just SYMPATHETIC and Humanity Loss to always correspond with EVIL in a sort of D&D alignment split kind of way.  I think it's a hard concept to view the Humanity Definition OUTSIDE of a pre-game moral judgement.

Thoughts?

Jesse

[sirogit]

There's a very brief discourse on humanity and sympthy here:
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=9393

Personally, I think the concept of Humanity as Sympathizable stems from value systems that some people make of the game, paticularly using Humanity as a control mechanic on the players.

Worried about players doing the psychotic gamer thing and slaughtering a bunch of people for little reason, making your morality play very lopsided? Well, they'd have pretty low Humanity then.

That sort of thinking can evolve into groups which expect Humanity loss calls in order to discourage action they want to discourage as players, or establish as having a large cost to them. When you call a humanity loss roll for someone the group feels is doing encouragable behavior, that feeling is broken and you have a disconnection of concepts.

[Ace]

SNIP

The way I see it Humanity is "personal identity."  The central character Roger Smith, is a Sorcerer with two demons Big O (his starting demon) and an android named Dorothy (who he comes to bind over the course of the first two episodes).  I particularly enjoyed the part where Dorothy is being used as a battery pack for one of the giant robots and while trying to save her Roger shouts "Just be who you are!"  Engendering a personal identity in something that (by human standards) shouldn't have one.


Thoughts?

Jesse

thank you for posting this!

I have been working on a Sorcerer conversion for Big O for quite a while now

I am going to drift a bit so bear with me oh yeah and Spoilers AHEAD




Here is what I have for Big O notes

Sorcerers
Roger Smith
Stamina 3 (fit)
Will 5(moral code and sence of self)
Lore 4 (dominues of megadues)

Price -- Bad with Women
Covers (2) -- Negociator and Military Policeman

-- he is bound to Big O and Dororthy.

However Dorothy actually won the binding  (you said you would take care of me) and has a few dice on Roger at least IMO

She is a Passer Demon-  with Boost Stamina (Self) Movement (Fast as Hell) and Boost Lore (She can be plugged into the other Robots)
Her need is to be cared for as a human -- her desire is to play piano
Her telltale is -- robotic movement

The Big O is of of course an immenant -- with Movement (Land Sea and Tunnel) and Massive Firepower.

Other Sorcerers

Alan Gabriel -- Who has a paraite demon and 0 humanity

Alex Rosewater -- Cover CEO of course

Gordon Rosewater -- Vry High Lore 5 or maybe even 6

Professor Wayneright -- Dorothys "Father"

Beck Gold -- Lore 2 Usefull Memories

Schwartzwald -- maybe

Norman Burg. Ok I admit  Norman is an odd example but IMO he is either a Sorcerer or a Demon himself -- His easy familiarity with the various machines is a good tell in my book plus he has the ability to fix Big O  -- clearly an example  of Lore in action

One episode of of Big O leads me to think that NOrman has a repair crew of Androids (aka Demons) bouund to him. Norman is repairing Big O after a long battle with Big Fau -- One of the crew members remarks "We won't let them take away our Purpose" This could be (and is probably meant to be) a reaction to the city wide amnesia -- However it works equally well as a Demon in the form of a Swarm of Workers Need-- Repair Things Desire -- Live as Human

possibly near the end of the show Dan Dastun (Lore 1 after he is clued in a bit and figures out Roger is the Dominues

and more


Demons include --

Big O

Dorothy

Motzart the Piano Android

The Leviathan

Various bots Roger blew up (the combat and chase bots etc)

Big Duo

Big Fau

Dorothy

Alan Gabriels Inate Cyberware

The Submarine

And of course there is one Angel


Descriptors for Will and Stamina are as per the rule book

Lore descriptors
Niave (1)
Usefull Memeories
Dominueus (4+)
Understands Machines
Possessed by Memories
Inventor
Father (maybe)


Hope this helps

Anthony

[jburneko]

Hello,

I've taken the details of Big O  to Sorcerer conversion to private message.  I was mostly using it as a strong lead in to my more general topic of highly sympathic and lighter demons and heroic and "good" actions that run counter to the humanity definition.

I'd like to keep this thread focused on that issue.

Jesse

[xiombarg]

I've taken the details of Big O  to Sorcerer conversion to private message.  I was mostly using it as a strong lead in to my more general topic of highly sympathic and lighter demons and heroic and "good" actions that run counter to the humanity definition.

In that case, I think sirogit's comment is very salient.

As long as you're playing with people who aren't going to use such a Humanity definition as an excuse to go bugfuck, I think making it so there's "good" reasons to lower your Humanity works. You just, as you say, have to be sure to apply it consistently.

In fact, I think it's an excellent idea -- that's very much the sort of conflicts Sorcerer is about. Put two opposing "goods" against each other, with Humanity depending on one of them.

In your example (which I'm only using as an example, to keep this on-topic), you're setting up a game where the central question is: "Which is better, protecting my individuality or helping the innocent?" Where the demons are also "innocent" -- they lack individuality to a large extent, and don't know what this lack is getting them into. In an attempt to save them, Roger is damaging himself, but doing something good.

One way to drive this sort of thing home would be to have a mechanic where when one does certain things that reduce Humanity, there is some other game-mechanical effect.

To use your example again, and noting that I haven't seen the ending of the series, perhaps that whenever Roger's Humanity goes down attempting to give identity to a demon/robot, roll Lore against the demon's Power. If Lore wins, the demon gains a Humanity point. Demons would start out with negative Humanity (impossible in humans), equal to their Power or something. When the demon reaches Humaniy 1, they break all bindings on themselves and become a Sorcerer, having arcieved idenitity. All their former demon powers become a Parasite demon, so using those powers push them away from their new-found humanity...

Similar mechanics could be used, unique to the situation and Humanity definition. The idea is when Humanity goes down for a "good" reason, something else interesting happens elsewhere. In this example, the end of Roger's story -- 0 Humanity -- could be the start of Dorothy's story, as she gains Humanity.

[jrs]

Tod and I have batted about describing P.G. Wodehouse's Jeeves and Wooster stories in Sorcerer terms.  Jeeves is obviously Wooster's demon.  Humanity would be something in the order of social graces.  

I don't think you could get much lighter than that.

Julie

[Bankuei]

Hi Jesse,

That's definitely one of the lines that trips up Sim or Sim accustomed players, is that there is no actual "right or wrong" moral statement made by the game system or setting itself regarding the choice to preserve or blow away your Humanity- the moral statement is made by the people at the table.

The real question being asked every time, is, "Is your Humanity worth it?", which only the players can answer.

Chris

[jburneko]

This is all very interesting.  I think it's very tempting to get into a lot of pre-game arguments about the "appropriateness" of a Humanity definition based on one's own value judgements about such things.  For example in my space-western game Humanity was "respecting the rule of law" and resulted in this kind of situation where we were gleefully cheering for the protagonists as their Humanity was being sapped away in a plot to undermine the government's authority.

For some reason the whole setup worked for the particular group of players I was with at the time.  BUT I could easily see someone who's say, a zealot liberterian objecting to the Humanity definition on the principle that because respecting the rule of law isn't ALWAYS a good thing then it ISN'T (objectively) the defining quality of Humanity.  In fact, I imagine that this phenomenon might happen anytime someone has strong feelings on morality and might start insisting  that we find THE definition of Humanity before we start deciding if we're violating it or not.

I also like the suggested idea that demons can be viewed as "innocents."  I think the concept that a demon's inhumanity could be seen as something to be pittied rather than feared is very interesting.  In fact, it strikes me that there would be a very subtle difference in saying that be default demon's have a Humanity score of zero rather than no Humanity score at all.  This feeds into the ideas in Sorcerer's soul about Demon-To-Human conversions.

One possibility that comes to mind is Humanity trading from Sorcerer to Demon.  Perhaps rolling one's Humanity vs. the demon's Power.  Regardless of success or failure the number of victories is taken off the Sorcerer's Humanity.  BUT if the Humanity roll was the victor those victories are directly added to the Demon's Humanity score (and maybe subtracted off the demon's power score).

This is a little softer than what's suggested in Sorcerer's Soul.  I believe the suggestion in there is that Humanity gain for a demon FIRST whittles down the demon's power score to nothing and then once Humanity is gained all demon-ness is gone and if the demon uses any of it's abilities all previous Humanity gain is lost.   I think a setting in which the demon's constant teetering in a effort to be human is almost as interesting as the Sorcerer's own struggle to keep up with the Demon's Need and Desire would be a lot fun.

Jesse

[xiombarg]

For some reason the whole setup worked for the particular group of players I was with at the time.  BUT I could easily see someone who's say, a zealot liberterian objecting to the Humanity definition on the principle that because respecting the rule of law isn't ALWAYS a good thing then it ISN'T (objectively) the defining quality of Humanity.  In fact, I imagine that this phenomenon might happen anytime someone has strong feelings on morality and might start insisting  that we find THE definition of Humanity before we start deciding if we're violating it or not.

I think this is a problem that pops up in Sorcerer a lot, where people get hung up on their preconceptions about the word "Demon" and "Humanity".

"Humanity" is just a placeholder for "whatever human tendency or issue that the current game is about". In those terms, I doubt your "Libertarian" would have any problem with the defintion of Humanity you're using once one understands the word "Humanity" is only a game-mechanical placeholder.

Just like "Demon" is just a placeholder for "something that should not be present that challenges Humanity". Which is why robots work as Demons in the "Big O" example.

This is a little softer than what's suggested in Sorcerer's Soul.  I believe the suggestion in there is that Humanity gain for a demon FIRST whittles down the demon's power score to nothing and then once Humanity is gained all demon-ness is gone and if the demon uses any of it's abilities all previous Humanity gain is lost.   I think a setting in which the demon's constant teetering in a effort to be human is almost as interesting as the Sorcerer's own struggle to keep up with the Demon's Need and Desire would be a lot fun.

I very much agree, obviously. And it means that what even as one character degnerates, a new character is rising.

In fact, if this is a strong theme for a particular game, it could be that when a character's Kicker is resolved, you retire them and replace them with a Demon that's become human during play as a result of that character's actions...