Sci Fi vs Fantasy

[DevP]

I'm reading Jeph's excellent Exemplar, and am getting cool vibes from it. Sci-fi, clear focus, slight fantastic elements, borderline metaphysics; depending on how it played it could be angstfully ambiguous or GoodVsEvil.

One is that sci-fi often has problems with a wide scope. The PCs often have a vehicle which lets them zip about to distant places, and instantaneous communication to many possible sources. So it can be hard to get depth -- the extreme case being space opera planet-of-the-week.

(Speaking of the consequences of zipping around instantaneously.) This is a problem in space-oepra, and it in fact did derail my running game due to some inexperience and insufficient setting on my part. You need to give your players a reliable baseline of expectations/themes/peoples/etc. which they can riff on. I think that this doesn't contradict planet-o'-the-week stuff, however; in fact, getting a large universe setting may only be doable in weekly planet-sized doses.

Somehow I find "Wow! I developed this really cool framistat that bends light waves to make me invisible!" less engaging than "I created this magical staff but had summon and make a deal with a demon to do so."

There's always that Star Trek effect, jargoning up a plot device as it shouldn't be. In either case - explaining it via demonics or pseudoscience - the interesting stuff isn't the explanation, but the dangerous negotations (or risky and exhausting jury-rigging) that go into it. So it's a matter of focus. The "Sci" isn't the important focus in sci-fi, if you ask me: it's just a different sort of fantasy.

I *like* that most of the fantasy literature I read and enjoy isn't morally ambiguous.

I like the idea of moral abiguity, but I very often end up with an ethically monotonic group, and relatively GvE plots despite myself. (Y'know, last week it was "Why Despotism And Slave-Trading Are Bad" and so on.) It is sort of more comfortable to play in, all told.

[Andrew Cooper]

Actually, I have seen Dragonstar and taken a VERY quick look at it.  The only thing that threw me off is the extremely bad orcs and elves in space stuff I had read before.  Does anyone have a decent review of the setting?  I'd be interested in hearing it.

Andrew

[Brother Adso]

Well, what do we enjoy about fantasy?  This alone can tell us a lot about what we will or will not like about sci-fi settings, really.

1) Cultural archetypes in fantasy play are often a big draw.  I'm not a big fan of importing these full-scale into another genre (Space Celts are very hard to pull off, though it's been done, once...can't remember the name of the book for the life of me, though.), but I do suggest looking for other appropriate archetypes which can be a lot of fun.  For example, it's rather hard to emulate the English Empire (of the 1880's, say) in a fantasy game, but a cultivated interstellar empire which rules over hundreds of semi-primitive worlds by virtue of technology, culture, and diplomatic ingenuity?  I think so!  Or perhaps a mess of isolated worlds cut off from their once-master, seething with revolution, poverty, and hope for modernization (Bolivar's south america).  You see, there are many cultural-historical archetypes that can be used for Sci-fi play.

2) Heroic Character in fantasy play often seems easier -- summoning a host of angels by virtue of your great faith or single-handedly defeating the Lord of The Blood Lands in hand-to-hand combat seems more characterful than pressing the Missile Button.  This can be solved by either technical means (spaceships are valuable, man!  Boarding actions all around!), or by creating a heroic set of player-goals and challenges that play off the specific nature of the genre.  Heroism in sci-fi often has the potential to be extremely character-focused -- for example, the medic who braves the wreck of the cruise ship Osmund to resucitate the survivors -- so long as the emphasis stays on them (IE the medic is the focus, not her super-healo-beam).

3) Remoteness of fantasy play is quite appealing.  We have computers, nation-states, bosses, elections, and the everpresent threat of guns in our own lives, so, to some degree, a fantasy game can be more 'escapist' than a game which incorporates these elements.  Once again, this element can be incorporated into sci-fi games by making technology and society either very different to the point of virtual incomprehesibility (Dune) or by securing a universe in which these similarities are used fruitfully, to increase the number of 'strange things' that can be done -- Shadowrun is a good example of this.

Any other things people enjoy about fantasy that might help this poor man make it into less of a bland, light-speed-laser-blaster-flavored experience?


Brother Adso
Stat Roma pristina nomina, nomina nuda tenemus.

Extra Random Note: Look up PARANOIA.  It's one of the funniest and most original Sci-Fi games I've ever played.  If you want to start out small and silly to work your way up, this is the place.

[Andrew Cooper]

Actually, I love Paranoia.  I hadn't thought of that but you are correct.  It's a really funny game.  I think the one of the funniest things in the book is the picture of the PC with a bazooka pointed at some poor schmuck cowering against a wall and the caption read something like, "Bob gets a bonus to his persuade check."

[brainwipe]

[ot]SLA Industries has celts in the form of the sword-wielding frothers[/ot]

[TerroX]

running sci-fi is sometimes a bit harder because the technology allows players to travel faster and communicate easier.
the GM is usually trying to think up credible answers as to why the crafty players can not circumvent the whole adventure with some unforseen device ability.

in fantasy you can't just zip to the end of the dungeon at Mach 10.

[Eric J.]

But you can set fire to it and use up all of its oxygen.

But yeah, I think that everyone is on the right track.  Fantasy is probably more protagonising because of its focus on the human element.

The human element is only strengthened by the focus on nature since nature is a focus on God.  I.E. Everything exists in this natural wonderful romantic world.  Sci-fi has a harder time with that because we live in non-romantic world and going forward doesn't always intuitively (<== Butchered word) look to the future for that.

And science fiction leads to fear of thinking.  Or something like that.

My favorite thing from this whole thread was from the person who said that Sci-fi is progressive while Fantasy is regressive.  I've been kindof struggling with this subject before that.  Thank you.

May the wind be always at your back,
-Pyron

[orbsmatt]

I believe that with the problem of being able to get around a lot quicker in sci-fi really isn't a problem at all.  The problem is the fact that we are used to the travelling issue in fantasy.  The long treks between cities adds to the elements of fantasy RPGs.

In Sci-Fi we have to look at the situation a little differently.  Travel between planets can be compared to travel between cities or kingdoms, and travel on a planet can be compared to travel within a city.  IMO, that view can help you realize where the epic feel of sci-fi comes from as compared to fantasy, and allows the GM to plan his missions accordingly.

[Mike Holmes]

Andrew, having read the previous post, I couldn't actually find what the restriction was. Just that you can't play "fantasy" because the guy's parent's won't let him. What specifically about fantasy do they disapprove of? Beause there are some fantasy games which might not offend them. There are, for instance, some specifically Christian fantasy RPGs (can somebody help me with titles). If we knew what it was that they specifically objected to, then maybe we could suggest a game closer to what you like that's not problematic to them.

But, to get back to the thread proper here, I think that a lot of people have hit on the solution. What's the difference between Star Wars and any fantasy book? Lets see, there's a boy from a remote place who learns of a group of people struggling against an evil overlord. The boy goes and gets his father's lightsabre (magic sword), and learns from an ancient wizard (Kenobi) the ways of The Force, an almost magical power. He then goes off on a quest to destroy the fortress of the jedi knight in black armor. He rides his trusty x-wing fighter into battle, and manages against all odds to use the magi..Force to destroy the deathstar. Later he finds out that the black knight is his father seduced to the dark side by the evil emperor. Yadda, yadda...

What about this isn't just fantasy in a different wrapper? So is it the action or the wrapper that you're having problems with?

Mike

[DevP]

Mike,

I think the big problem is trying to grip the world itself in the collective imaginings. A bit of it is subjective, but there simply isn't as much of a template to "expect" from your setting, nor is there as much structure for what you want to do be doing in game.

I'd say if some players have this sort of problem with the setting, it's either (a) wrong audience and lack of expectations (e.g. non-anime-folks playing in a heavily anime-influenced setting and "not getting it"), or (b) the settings fault, for making false assumptions and not getting the world's feel across.

[Andrew Cooper]

Mike,

The reasons the parents have for not liking the fantasy genre are fairly silly.  They just don't like fantasy but can live with Sci Fi.  The Force, Psionics and technology so advanced it seems supernatural doesn't bother them but calling it magic and sorcery does.  It isn't logical but there it is.

Anyway, Dev is correct.  My liking for Fantasy is a very subjective thing.  It's the same kind of thing as why I like Football better than Basketball, why I like asperagus better than brocolli or why I like Smallville better than Buffy.  It isn't that I don't like Sci Fi.  I just much prefer Fantasy.  

My experience level with Sci Fi is probably part of my issue too.  I've read more Fantasy and that does provide me with a certain comfort level with winging things when need be.  As I run more Sci Fi, I'll probably get more comfortable with it and that'll obviously make me like it a bit more.

[DevP]

Okay, here's the biggest of example of a Sci-Fi universe having way, way, way too much scope:

http://www.orionsarm.com

It's a 'verse of mind-blowing and amazing potential (NoCoZo forever!) but... WHAT CAN YOU DO??? The Encyclopaedia alone is untraversable. If you ask me, dumping the Encylopaedia Galactica on your desk and saying you've got a setting is really wrong. (Of course, Orion's Arm isn't going for a RPG setting, more like a hard-science future history, so I'm not critisizing it, but it's suitability for play.)

[Mike Holmes]

You still seem to be dodging the question. I mean, are they insane, or is there a religious reasoning to their objection? Why don't they like magic?

Because, for example, this game: http://www.holylands.net/main.htm

is a Christian fantasy RPG. So if they're christians, they can hardly object, and you'd get to play fantasy.

Now, this particular game might not suit, but there are a bunch of others.
http://www.aubogames.com/hlyqsthp.html
http://www.dragonraid.net

If the players all chose Christian backgrounds, then even Pendragon might qualify.

The point is that you may be able to have your cake and eat it too. Depending on what the objection really is.

Now, that said, I apollogize for any derailing I've done. I do realize that you're already into your new game and as such the topic is getting you accustomed to it. That said, I'm a little confused about your response. Do you want to aclimate to sci-fi or don't you?

My point is that if you allow your fantasy genre conventions to guide you that you'll do just fine in Sci-fi. Just change sabre to light-sabre, and Spell of Mind Control to Jedi Mind Trick. For space opera, the adjustment should be minimal. Does tech seem problematic? Then either gloss it over entirely, or assign a Tech Czar - a player who has the power to create technologies as neccessary to maintain your plots as you see fit.

Mike

[Andrew Cooper]

Yes, their objections are religious in origin.  I find this odd as my father is their pastor and he doesn't have any objections to my game.  Sorry I seemed to be dodging before.  It wasn't intentional.

Actually, I am doing a good bit of what you have suggested with my current Alternity campaign.  Since I'm a little unsure of myself in the setting, I've decided to model the game after the good old fashion fantasy dungeon crawl, which is incredibly simple to run.  I've replaced monsters with unknown alien species, dungeons with planets and star systems, magic with psionics and a homebase (village) with a Fortress Ship.  I must say that the first session went quite well.  I figure I'll get a little more complex with the stories as I get more comfortable with the setting and system.

[Scourge108]

In my experience, pointing out such logical inconsistencies to people with religious objections to RPGs doesn't accomplish much, since their objections aren't really based on reason.  It's a matter of faith.  Whether or not it's misplaced faith is a matter of opinion, and arguing about it is futile.  I know of people who think Christian rock, for example, is even worse than Gwar or Marilyn Manson on the Satanic scale, since they are pretending to be righteous and dragging God into their "filth."  I have pointed out such great Christian works of fantasy as C.S. Lewis' Narnia series and Dragonraid, but I have seen it backfire more often than convert.  A large amount of people believe that anything to do with magic or the supernatural in any way is glamorizing demonic black magic.  I recall when the same people who started the D&D is Evil movement claimed that the Smurfs was a satanic recruiting propoganda show (although come to think of it, they may have a point...), simply because Papa Smurf made a magic potion.  It may seem silly to us, but as they see it, this one minor occult object in their house may be the difference between having someone sacrifice a baby in the basement as part of the game.  Dressing it up in sheep's clothing is just the sort of trick the devil would pull.  I'd recommend using sci-fi explanation for fantasy themes (i.e. genetic mutations that give psionic powers similar to "spells").  Unless they are more of the type that thinks roleplaying any sort of violent or dangerous activity is destructive to young minds and can instantly turn a mild-mannered choirboy into an axe-wielding maniac.  Those are usually the extremists on the other wing, though.