[Azure Dusk] Brainstorming

[Daniel Solis]

Over on the birthday forum, I mentioned a weird game concept I have had sitting stillborn for several months because it was just too weird for me to get my head around completely. In other words, writers block.

I wanted to get some ideas for it now that a few people have expressed interest in seeing it developed further. In case you missed the original post...

Azure Dusk
In a cosmos filled entirely with water, there are no traditionally discernible directions of up, down, left, or right. There isn't even any gravity. Instead, there are two directions, on one side is a realm filled with blinding light, on the other is smothering darkness. The two realms blend into each other in a vast, liquid gradient. Directly between the extremes is a ribbon of blue where dolphins swim, practicing their choir-oriented magics and fending off invasions of the horrors emerging from both the light and dark realms.

Players would be dolphins.... Doing... something. I dunno. The whole idea of this setting really calls out to me though, and I want to do something with it. I see pods of dolphins racing around coral cities grown from the massive skeletons of ancient leviathans, singing powerful song magics and going on adventures for adventure's sake, rather than profit or "advancement." I guess it's sort of a RPG version of the Ecco video games.

For a moment, I thought about making it a d20 game and the characters' alignment would be reflected as a sort of gravity. If you're edging towards the "good" end of things, you're pulled more heavily to the light realm, where your individuality is discorporated into the collective. If you become "evil," you're pulled to the dark realm and perpetual, maddening loneliness. I was even thinking about expanding the game to include other "races" of sea mammals as player characters, but I wasn't too sure about that.

So, with some of this stuff kept in mind as the core elements of the game, I'd like to hear any ideas that come to mind. I've honestly hit a complete block so anything might spark some inspiration. Suggest anything: system, central themes of play, color elements, anything. Toss 'em all at me, I'm open.

[Shreyas Sampat]

I think that your goodness~gravity relation is a really great tool here, and if you can somehow generate a reason to make moral choices, then you've got an engine.

It seems like you could probably say that "dolphins need to continually perform both bad and good acts in order to remain in the comfortable central zone", so that they're forced to be somewhat odd crosses between paladins and the losers killing puppies for satan.

That strikes me as being dangerously caricaturish, but I think that something can be made of it. Maybe dolphins are unique in this need to retain moral balance to keep their place in the ribbon?

[Walt Freitag]

Just curious... I know this is pretty much beside the point of the game, but it's going to bug me anyway.

Is there air somewhere for the dolphins to breathe?

- Walt

[Emily Care]

Is there air somewhere for the dolphins to breathe?

This is Daniel's to answer, of course, but I imagine the dark/light zone being the shallow/deep water divide.  Guess that means that those who had crossed to the dark side would have to come out into the light once in a while. 'Course these could be sci-fi dolphins on some other planet where they get their oxygen from the ocean.

Okay, themes, schemes and ideas:
Seems like an emphasis on color and atmosphere would be key here. The visuals of the setting (towering coral reefs, dark unnameable horrors in the abyss) are what struck me.  If you can incorporate descriptions into the flow of play, that would be ideal.  Rather than just backdrop.  Oh, and echo-location should play a key role, especially for those in the dark depths.  Perhaps as you move into darkness, you rely on this sense more.  The visual descriptions could cut out as well--emphasizing the loneliness of the darkness.  Hm.

Was it in so long and thanks for all the fish that they talk about dolphin technology? No need for opposable thumbs when what you want to do all day is swim and play.  I've always liked the thought of dolphin or water environment arisen technology. What would it be like? Hunter-gatherer? Magic based? They use echo location to stun fish, had you heard that?

What are they afraid of? What will drive the plots? I like the idea of adventure for adventure's sake though.  The sand-castle type idea sounds fine, but I'm not sure how the dark/gravity bit fits in there.  What will darken a dolphin's world? What will bring them into the light? Their actions? Their experiences?

--Emily

[Daniel Solis]

(Just moving Micheal's post over to this thread before the birthday forum goes kaputz.)

You have too many cool side-project ideas that don't get finished, man. ;) *looks longingly at G&S*

On-topic.. ECCO is definitely what I think of first, and that's pretty cool. It's a great visual, and I really enjoyed the games.

Goals of play would probably be something like: have an interesting adventure to while away the time.

..actually, this does remind me of G&S, just with a different focus. Instead of "heroic tribal story" it's more like "amusing diversion/life". If that makes any sense. Same kind of family structure, same kind of life.

I dunno, I've always seen dolphins as being rather happy animals. That, coupled with your desire for "Adventure for adventure's sake" leads me to..

GM-type: "Okay, this is a game of whatever. Remember when you were kids, bored in the backyard, and someone started up some crazy make-believe adventure? It's that, except now you're dolphins instead of astronauts or cowboys, and the entire universe is a sea."
D1: "Mm.. I'm checking out that coral reef!"
D2: "Aaand.. there's a shark in there!"
D3: "Shark widda laser!"

And off they go.

Themes would probably be things like familiy and friendship, discovering the unknown and the legendary.. "full lives". Live an -interesting- dolphin life.

Anyway, I'd play it in a heartbeat. The alignment/gravity rating would be an interesting thing to adjust after each adventure. The scale might govern the type of magic you do, and your appearance (KOTOR/Jedi?), in addition to the kinds of things you can bring into an adventure. Light characters have lots of "shining knights"; Heavy characters have the more "mature" storyline stuff to draw on.

Just thinking out loud here..

EDIT: This got posted before Daniel edited in the new link. Discussion of can go back over there! ;)

[Daniel Solis]

I think that your goodness~gravity relation is a really great tool here, and if you can somehow generate a reason to make moral choices, then you've got an engine.

This, of course, begs the question of what are "good" and "bad" acts when the light and dark sides are equally unpleasant and nightmarish.

Just curious... I know this is pretty much beside the point of the game, but it's going to bug me anyway.

Is there air somewhere for the dolphins to breathe?

It's not beside the point at all! I was actually thinking that air would have the save social importance in this setting that water would have in a desert setting. Small, mysterious pockets of bubbling air would be like an oasis around which pods could build communities of varying sizes. Because there isn't any gravity, the air would just condense into a bubbly mass. (I don't know if that is actually the case, but it makes for really cool visuals.) Dolphins couldn't venture too far away from their air source or risk asphyxiation. Heck, air could be a resource used to sing songs.

If you can incorporate descriptions into the flow of play, that would be ideal.  Rather than just backdrop.  Oh, and echo-location should play a key role, especially for those in the dark depths.  Perhaps as you move into darkness, you rely on this sense more.  The visual descriptions could cut out as well--emphasizing the loneliness of the darkness.  Hm.

So a narrativist, mellower version of the wushu system? Embellishments aren't what drive the system, simply descriptions? Hm. It could work.

I've always liked the thought of dolphin or water environment arisen technology. What would it be like? Hunter-gatherer? Magic based? They use echo location to stun fish, had you heard that?

What are they afraid of? What will drive the plots? I like the idea of adventure for adventure's sake though.  The sand-castle type idea sounds fine, but I'm not sure how the dark/gravity bit fits in there.  What will darken a dolphin's world? What will bring them into the light? Their actions? Their experiences?

These are the questions that plagued me when thinking about the game months ago and what led me to an insurmountable block. I suppose if a dolphin's natural state, when given a steady diet and source of air, is socialization and play, the things that would scare it are anything that inhibits the ability for a dolphin to socialize and play. Family is very important. The intensity of social bonds ought to be reflected in the game mechanics in some way.

You have too many cool side-project ideas that don't get finished, man. ;) *looks longingly at G&S*

These two will be my primary projects for the next few months, though that doesn't guarantee I'll be able to develop them any more rapidly than I did PUNK.

Themes would probably be things like familiy and friendship, discovering the unknown and the legendary.. "full lives". Live an -interesting- dolphin life.

So a desire for exploration and a sense of wanderlust are generally what may drive a dolphin to go adventuring, just as they would drive a child. Interesting.  

Anyway, I'd play it in a heartbeat. The alignment/gravity rating would be an interesting thing to adjust after each adventure. The scale might govern the type of magic you do, and your appearance (KOTOR/Jedi?), in addition to the kinds of things you can bring into an adventure. Light characters have lots of "shining knights"; Heavy characters have the more "mature" storyline stuff to draw on.

I really like the idea of dolphins having Polynesian-style markings on their skin. Perhaps that would be a way to note a dolphin's alignment, aside from their tendency to drift towards the light or dark side.
-----


One thing I should note that may not have been initially clear is that I imagined the whole realm being an ocean without ground, shore, or sky. It's just endless water with the closest things to "land" being the drifting coral reefs formed from enormous skeletons of creatures long dead. (Think something like the Boodong from Farscape.)

[Emily Care]

Hey Daniel,

Sounds good.  I like the polynesian style markings.  You asked before if having the dolphins interact with other creature was a good idea, and I think it would be.  The dangers of sharks/squids/whales are ready made conflicts, and I like the idea of the dolphins travelling the watersphere finding playmates and puzzles to interact with.  

There's something about the alien nature of the environment that would be great to capture in play.  It would be fun to immerse in the playfulness and mischeviousness of a dolphin.  

And back to the light-dark duality.  I like the heavy/dark dolphins having more mature storylines idea that anonymouse mentioned.  And the sense of a need for balance that Shreyas talked about.  The light/dark, light/heavy oppositions might be joined by a third set: open/closed.  Dolphins that drift too far into the light fall into a sense of the one-ness of all being, which leaves them open to other parts of being which are all too aware of their separation, and the snackability of the dolphins (ie sharks).  

Good luck with it!

--Emily Care

[Daniel Solis]

While the setting is probably most evocative as an alien place waiting to be discovered, I'm going to try to keep the dolphins relatively identifiable and anthropomorphized. The use of an three-part axis of morality might be useful for that, though I'd like it to have a different mechanical feel that the D&D alignment system.

The specific mention of mischief as a dolphin characteristic gets me thinking about traits. the things that immediately come to mind are Mischief, Bravery, Wanderlust, Song, and Compassion. These might not all be traits, but they do seem to encompass most of what we think of when we (or maybe just I) think of dolphins.

Another visual I'm thinking about is a group of dolphins swimming in formation, singing coordinated songs as a means of defense/offense against giant horrors from the deep. (Like the starfuries taking on a massive battlecruiser in Babylon 5.)

Shreyas has pointed out that cooperation and loyalty are central to the culture I'm developing and I tend to agree. I don't ever see dolphins attacking one another or truly betraying each other. While practical jokes are common, they are mostly in good fun and all dolphins are good sports. That is probably why it is best to have any dolphins turning to the darker side of things to look visibly different, either through differing markings or through some other visual hook. The lighter dolphins might actually become progressively invisible as their individuality dissolves. And that always leaves open the possibility for sadness... Hm.

[Jeph]

Hi Daniel,

Have you read the Uplift series, by David Brin? It's pretty much trashy, mediocre, non-inspired sci-fi in the most incredibly cool universe ever, which happens to include sentient dolphins. One of the books focuses on them almost exclusively--name of Startide Rising, ISBN 0-553-27418-X. In particular it's got some excellent echolocation imagery and cool sonar illusion play. I recommend that you check it out. :)

Even though it kinda sucks.
--Jeff

[Marhault]

In a cosmos filled entirely with water, there are no traditionally discernible directions of up, down, left, or right. There isn't even any gravity. Instead, there are two directions, on one side is a realm filled with blinding light, on the other is smothering darkness.

I take this lack of gravity to mean that there also isn't an ocean floor, yes?  So everything floats, right?  Cool.

What about other sea creatures?  Do sharks and turtles exist here?  If so, where would we find them?  Somehow I can see the "horrors" on the light side as being shark-kin, and the ones on the dark side being squid-type things.

I think the key here is defining what is dark and what is light, as far as behavior and "alignment" is concerned.  A few possibilities have occured to me.

1)  Using the traits you mentioned (which are great candidates, by the way) it occurs to me that Mischief and Compassion represent flip sides (in a way) of the core ideas of loyalty and community.  Mischief and playfulness are essential to the dolphins living together and having fun, while Compassion and mutual affection bring the community closer together.  As Mischief take you closer to the light side your pranks get meaner and more harmful, while Compassion would become more and more smothering as your orientation got darker.  (This idea ties in nicely with the squid/shark thing I mentioned earlier.)  Stats may even change to reflect this, ie mischief becomes Meanness, which becomes Cruelty, etc.

2)  Do it yourself it.  Each PC must define their own Light/Dark conflict, in addition to standard dolphin characteristics.  (Yah!  Overt Nar premise!  Help!)  This would be kind of cool, as Dolphins would not understand why there friends were being dragged into the Light/Dark.

3)  Maybe this is stupid, but. . .  It could be random.  That is, the dolphins don't know and can't control Light/Dark tendency. . . Nah.  That sounds lame, even to me.

[Jonathan Walton]

I think this is the first real reason I've ever had to mention Rifts on the Forge but... Rifts Underseas, which is, in general, mechanically terrible and pretty decent setting wise (it was written by C. J. Carella when he was still with Palladium), has dolphins and whales as PCs and includes a whole section on "how to think like a dolphin."  Don't know how good its advice is, because I don't own the book anymore, but it impressed me when I was a 13yo fanboy.  I wouldn't read it before you get your own core concepts nailed down, so it doesn't corrupt your thinking, but it might be cool to flip through when you're ready to begin writing this thing.

[Daniel Solis]

Apologies for being unresponsive the past couple days, things are getting crazy IRL.

Have you read the Uplift series, by David Brin?

Nope, but I've heard lots of stuff about it. Doesn't Steve Jackson Games have a whole GURPS line of Uplift books? I'll check out Startide Rising, thanks for the info.

What about other sea creatures?  Do sharks and turtles exist here?  If so, where would we find them?  Somehow I can see the "horrors" on the light side as being shark-kin, and the ones on the dark side being squid-type things.

I see all sorts of traditional aquatic creatures existing in this game, as well as some more bizarre organisms. I definitely want to bring in some of the weird beasties that lurk near volcanic vents and stuff. I guess there might be a "bestiary" writeup but I'd very much like to avoid any semblance of a Monstrous Manual.

I think the key here is defining what is dark and what is light, as far as behavior and "alignment" is concerned.  A few possibilities have occured to me.

While I personally like the dramatic complexities of player-chosen moral principles, I'm not so sure that it's appropriate for this game. The dichotomous traits of mischief/compassion seem to work pretty well though. I also like how mischief can lead to cruelty at an extreme, but what negative thing does compassion lead to at that extreme?

I think this is the first real reason I've ever had to mention Rifts on the Forge but... Rifts Underseas, which is, in general, mechanically terrible and pretty decent setting wise (it was written by C. J. Carella when he was still with Palladium), has dolphins and whales as PCs and includes a whole section on "how to think like a dolphin."

I'll definitely have to check that out when I get a chance.

I've given some thought to this whole adventure for adventure's sake concept. I'll do a quick writeup of some ideas I have very shortly.

[Lxndr]

That's simple - at the extreme, compassion can lead to dependency (as the compassionate one forgets that sometimes a person has to fail in order to succeed).  Also, perhaps, compassion can lead to self-destruction, as one's sensitivity increases beyond the point of sanity.

[anonymouse]

Mm, have to disagree with Lx there re: compassion results.

I'd say that taken to an extreme, it would lead to weakness not only in the individual, but in their family; it would be never saying "no", even when it was necessary.

There's a great series of novels in Japan (also an anime series) called 12 Kingdoms. Each kingdom has its own kirin (think unicorn); the kirin can take human shape, and assists the Emperor/ess in ruling the kingdom.

Kirin cannot stand the smell or touch of blood, they feint in its presence; and they will tell the Emperor/ess not to raise taxes, not to push the citizens hard to build the dam, not to kill a criminal. This, even if the taxes are necessary to support new bandit patrols, if the dam will save 3 villages if it's completed on time, or if the criminal will absolutely, assuredly, kill more people if he himself is allowed to live.

So.. super-compassion dolphins I would argue would be like these kirin, completely incapable of the "tough decisions".

Daniel, should we be thinking about this in terms of d20? And if so, what facets, exactly, do you identify as "d20"? Are you thinking just D&D with dolphins, or what? (I hate a lot of talk about "d20 games" because the absolute core of it is nothing, just d20 plus some modifiers. the baggage that people bring with it, however, is a whole nother story...)