[Eclipse] - How to Play and Chargen...

[Ben O'Neal]

Ok, I know this technically isn't a post directly related to questions about mechanics, but it is related to a question about my Eclipse rulebook, which I plan to release first as an art-less free playtest version, and then as a revised not-free full version with art and more of everything (species, abilities, and settings especially). If this works, then I'll use any money I make from selling the full pdf to pay for a print-run, but that's a fair way off me thinks. I have no idea if this will work, like if the raw plan is flawed or if it's flawed because I'll be trying it with Eclipse, but hell, I'm making the damned thing anyway and loving it, so I might as well give it a try!

The above pdf is only 26 pages of text (30 pages including chapter title pages), and is far from complete (like maybe another 250 pages off!), but my questions relate only really to the first few pages. Also, don't mind all the blank pages, I haven't started the art yet and I need to leave space for it in the layout.

My questions are pretty simple:

1. Is my "How to Play" section clear and concise enough, yet informative and comprehensive enough?

2. Have I mutilated forge-speak into unforgiveable abomination? Or is my use of terms such as "premise" and "shared imaginative space" close enough to be helpful and removed enough to be understandable to the average gamer who's never been to the forge?

3. Have I missed anything big and important in my 'Player' and 'Game Master' sections (page 3 I think).

4. Is my layout so far aesthetically pleasing? (Yes, I believe this is actually very important and one of those things where other people's opinions really do matter).

5. Does my chargen page make sense in terms of each individual step and the order of steps?

6. If anyone cares to read past the introduction chapter (all 4 pages of it), are there any areas that I need to explain more? Or things that should make sense but don't because I've neglected something?

Any other suggestions, comments, criticisms and questions are welcome!

Thanks,
-Ben

[simon_hibbs]

I tried the link, but you've exceeded your hosting service's bandwidth limit so it's inaccessible.

Simon Hibbs

[Ben O'Neal]

Really?

It's only 1mb, and only 54 people have viewed this thread, so by my calculations, only 6 would have clicked the link (ok, 27 tops). That's a crazily small amount of bandwidth. Oh well, I have a friend with a server and he said I could stick whatever I want up there so long as it doesn't exceed 25Gb per month, so I'll stick it up there tomorrow and post the new link. Then it should always work.

Thanks for letting us know!

-Ben

[Ben O'Neal]

Ok, if the first link I gave doesn't work, you can use this one. This one should never run out of bandwidth.

If I don't get any feedback I will simply assume that everything makes sense and doesn't need changing.

And if anyone is interested (which they probably aren't), here is a work-in-progress pic I will include in the full .pdf when it's done, just so you can get a feel for the style and quality of art it will have. It's my first ever attempt to paint in photoshop (and it's still quite a way off from being finished), so hopefully I will get better with successive pieces. This is the real reason I will be charging for the full .pdf, because it will basically work like a portfolio of sorts to help me start a career as a fantasy artist.

[Nathan P.]

Some initial reactions...

I like the graphic design. It's cool.

You're using "premise" as it is commonly defined, as opposed to its meaning in GNS-speak, yes? Not that this is good or bad, I just want to see if I'm interpreting the passage correctly.

The "shared imagined space" reference is spot on. Overall your Forge-ese seems well translated *g*

You kind of hedge around saying social contract, but I see that thats what you want to say. I don't think it would be too "esoteric" to have a paragraph on establishing social contract, if you want to point it out.

Why have all the different kinds of points for character generation, with all the converting of 10 to 1, etc? Is there any reason not to have a pool of "Character Points", and say you can spend 10 of those per level of cost of an ability, 2 per attribute point, etc? Thats something that would bug me as a player, unless theres some other significance I'm missing.

The Crystal, Fluid and Flame attributes are really cool color, as well as some of the derived attributes, but seem slightly incongrous with the more "traditional" attributes. I guess thats more a matter of taste than anything else, but I thought I'd point it out.

On a brief scan-though I don't see anything about the resolution mechanics, except that you get to roll a d20 and add stuff to it. Is this buried somewhere, or is it a section thats not there yet?

Hope thats useful. Looks like a cool game - I like the color a lot.

[Ben O'Neal]

I like the graphic design. It's cool.

Awesome.

You're using "premise" as it is commonly defined, as opposed to its meaning in GNS-speak, yes? Not that this is good or bad, I just want to see if I'm interpreting the passage correctly.

I'm using "premise" how I personally understand it, which is probably much closer to it's common definition than the GNS version. I'm hoping that my use of it is comprehensible and meaningful.

You kind of hedge around saying social contract, but I see that thats what you want to say. I don't think it would be too "esoteric" to have a paragraph on establishing social contract, if you want to point it out.

Yeah, if I mention social contract explicitly, I then need to define it, and doing so takes up space in the layout. I need to balance things so that every chapter page is on the right hand side, and so I have to work in lots of two pages. I don't think I could write two pages on social contract, so I squeezed it out and just use the concepts. Do you think it really needs to be in there to help players understand my meaning?

Why have all the different kinds of points for character generation, with all the converting of 10 to 1, etc? Is there any reason not to have a pool of "Character Points", and say you can spend 10 of those per level of cost of an ability, 2 per attribute point, etc? Thats something that would bug me as a player, unless theres some other significance I'm missing.

Yeah, the reason I have the "heirachy" of points for character creation is simply a way to control how characters develop. For example, characters have attributes, skills, and abilities. To simplify chargen, I created "Genesis Points" (GP) which are used to purchase all these things. The costs are as follows:

1 GP = 1 skill point
2 GP = 1 attribute point
10 GP = 1 ability point (AP)

I think the part that you are referring to is the AP part, because the other two function exactly as you've suggested. The reason AP works as a seperate lot of points is because they are handed out differently and are worth alot. This is because AP is what gives you things like profession abilities, which function similarly to classes (but allow much more). If I simply handled these like you suggested, players would have to walk a tight-rope between spending their GP on the cheaper attributes and skills for an immediate and numerically satisfying boost, or having many powerful abilities but low attributes. In my view, I'm making it easier to create a satisfying character, and more rewarding when you recieve AP.

This might make sense if I showed what might happen if I did away with AP. To do so, I would have to factor in how much GP characters would start with with the current exchange rate. Right now they start with 250 GP and maybe 8-14 AP. Now if I made all this AP GP (which players can actually choose to do by exchanging it, but which I do not do for them), then they would start with around 330-390 GP. Before, your character's stats were likely to be around 12-14 (or higher or lower) and you'd have around 20 odd skill points. If you started with 390 GP, you could have stats around 20 with skill points to spare, but then you would have shot yourself in the foot concerning abilities.

So I think it's just easier to give players a friendly nudge in the right direction, rather than shove them in the deep end. If they want to, they can still jump in the deep end. Does that make sense?

On a brief scan-though I don't see anything about the resolution mechanics, except that you get to roll a d20 and add stuff to it. Is this buried somewhere, or is it a section thats not there yet?

Yeah, that .pdf only has up to Chapter 4: Abilities (which I don't think is complete in that version). The resolution mechanics are Chapter 9: Rules of Play. Between now and then are skills, equipment, the character sheet, and advancement, and then there's 5 chapters after that too. Alot of work!

Thanks for you comments!

-Ben

[Hannu Hurme]

Looks nice, although I'm not sure I'd use graphics that have as much contrast as the ones you're using now. One small nitpick, you used Ego as a yardstick to measure how 'well' a character is. You might wish to replace Ego with Psyche or something else as usually Ego is considered to be negative thing. I might be way out of whack here btw.

[Nathan P.]

I'm using "premise" how I personally understand it, which is probably much closer to it's common definition than the GNS version. I'm hoping that my use of it is comprehensible and meaningful.

Cool. The passage makes sense, I was just wondrin'.

Do you think [social contract] really needs to be in there to help players understand my meaning?

I think the meaning is fairly straight-forward, I was just pointing out how it read to me. *shrugs* If it's going to be that much of a problem, I'm sure it's fine.

Yeah, the reason I have the "heirachy" of points for character creation is simply a way to control how characters develop...So I think it's just easier to give players a friendly nudge in the right direction, rather than shove them in the deep end. If they want to, they can still jump in the deep end. Does that make sense?

Yup. I was just wondering if you had a reason behind the decision, and you do (the same reason I've used on occasion, actually), so it's all good.

Thanks for you comments!

You're welcome! [shameless plug] If you really want to show your appreciation, I would love some feedback on my own http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=10840">current project...[/shameless plug].