A new game i'm working on...

[Pagrin]

Hello.
This being my first posting to this site....please be gentle if I'm not posting in the right area.
I'm working on a somewhat large game at the moment which I have been developing now for a few years. However its has in fact developed as two seperate products which I would like eventually to see published.
The first item is the game mechanics side of the game that is to say a rule book in every sence of the word, which lacks any true game notes as such. Currently its around 250 to 300 pages in total, but it is also being rewritten to trim this down some.
The second item is the game setting itself a place called "Earthstone". This is around 150 to 200 pages long but has no real game mechanics in it. Its just world information, places, peoples, polatics etc.
My question is, do people feel that it is possible to publish a game setting in itself with no rules as such? Otherwise I will have to try and publish both the rule system and the game world together, which I feel is to much data in one big hit.
Thanks in advance for any CC.
Pagrin :-)

[Kirk Mitchell]

Hi, and welcome to the Forge!
(always wanted to do that... ;) )
I think on the publishing matter you should go to the publishing forum, but if you want to discuss the mechanics or setting do so here.

I think that you should publish the rules and the setting in one, unless the rules have absolutely  nothing to do with the setting. If you look at many games, they manage to have both rules and setting in the same book. Unless you are planning some sort of cynical marketing strategy (A BRAND NEW GAME! rules available seperately).

Kirk

[Andy Kitkowski]

My question is, do people feel that it is possible to publish a game setting in itself with no rules as such? Otherwise I will have to try and publish both the rule system and the game world together, which I feel is to much data in one big hit.

Do you mean that your intention at first was to publish the setting without any rules whatsoever, so that the buyer could basically stat the characters in the game of their choice and play it that way?

If so, then I've heard a lot of people talk about doing this, but no one actually going through and doing it. You'll never know until you try.

But at that range (200 pages) the setting had better be interesting, otherwise people won't take the time to do the conversions...

Good luck!

[Pagrin]

Thanks for the welcome Dumirik.
It's not my intent to use the two produces as a marketing ploy, but rather that the two together would be a very thick book indeed and therefore also cost prohibative to produce and sell. But as you say that is a matter for the publishing forums.
Hello also to Andy.
I am a little surprised that no one has published a setting without the need for rules as such. Given that the D20 system is openly being used all over the place, I had assumed (Silly me) that game without a system would also be already out there.
I'm not intending the game to use D20, but the act of conversion would seem very simple if its just a case of setting.
As for, is my setting interesting. I guess I'm the wrong guy to ask. I kind of have a biased view of the project as you can imagine.
However it is a straight forward fantasy setting. the kind of which has been done a great many times before. In this case it grew out of the need for a "Generic fanasy world", that was its own beast, to prevent plot lines drifting apart because of players having different views of what "generic" actually meant.
Again thanks for the input. :-)
Pagrin :-)

[Ben O'Neal]

Hey Pagrin, it's nice to see a fellow aussie 'round here... we are few and far between.

Regarding publishing your setting seperately, I would advise against it, if only for the fact that it is a "generic fantasy world". I don't think anyone will buy a rule-less setting if they can get the same (or very similar) setting plus rules somewhere else. So I'd suggest either sticking it with your rules or dropping it entirely (though still, of course, using it yourself).

But I second the motion to see what your mechanics are offering. In particular, I'd be interested in seeing how the rules alone could reach 250-300 pages. Writing 450-500 pages alone in 2 years is quite alot from what I can tell.

So you've got the topic up, why not tell us a bit about your game? Here are some popular questions that may help get you started:

--What do characters do in your game? Or in other words, how might a typical adventure play out? What does play usually involve?

--What do your mechanics focus on? What are your rules governing?

--How are players (or their characters) rewarded in your game? (Also, what is your game called? Is it "Earthstone"? Or is that just the setting?)

--What do you feel is/are the biggest "selling point(s)" about your game? Like, if you had two minutes to sell your game to me, what would you try to say in that time?

I'm sure there are many other questions I should ask, but it's midnight here and I can't think of any. But that should be enough to get you started. Looking forward to your responses.

-Ben

[fruitbatinshades]

That sounds like a LOT of rules!  Have you just tried to cover everything or are the mechanics really complicated and need definitive explanations?
Ask your self if you strip the mechanics down a bit?
If by mechanics you mean you've got all your world items (Spells, armour, weapons etc) then that sounds about right.
We are publishing our mechanics and setting seperately but then were giving the mechanics away with the world setting!

[greyorm]

My question is, do people feel that it is possible to publish a game setting in itself with no rules as such?

That depends on if the setting contains actually useful material, or if its just a fantasy statistics book.

The best "setting books" are, in reality, "situation books." That is, they don't just detail places you can go, but concentrate mostly on the things you can do, on the events, conspiracies and plans of the various regions and people within them, and how they interrelate.

There was a very recent discussion of how the Riddle of Steel RPG's setting material was incredible because of this: it wasn't a long (ultimately irrelevant) history or geography lesson about the fantasy world, but was engaging because of the way the elements were presented and interacted.

I've looked, but my search-fu failed to turn up the thread, so I can't give you anything more than the generalities. That said, that's what you're looking for in a good setting book: something that can actually be used by players and gamemasters both in their games, rather than an academic listing of what grains this country produces, and what sort of government

All that is empty information without something to make it relevant to play, something that could be used (even if it isn't).

[contracycle]

I think a lot of authors have published settings entirely separately from mechanics - JRR Tolkien, Terry Pratchett, Fritz Lieber, Robert E,. Howard...

As mentioned above purpose building an rpg world product has yet to be seriously attempted.  I like the idea myself though, as no external source of information is ever organised as an RPGer needs it; we are always culling data and images out of other sources.  Sometimes, when buying a product whose system I have no intention of using, I'm rather annoyed to keep having to pay for all the pages dedicated to system.

So, count me in favour of the idea, in principle.

[Pagrin]

While the rules might seem long, yes they do indeed cover a lot of ground. They were written with the intent of being transplantable into any setting. So while they cover the rules needed for Earthstone, they also cover modern, and futuristic settings, also Horror (IE, Call of Ch... like games) They are also written so they can be used in more than one format. Table top, Freeforming, or LARP styles.
Hence they are long because they have a lot of different issues to cover. Also I just love to write. ;-P
As for Earthstone itself. I'll try and answer some of Ravie's questions if I may.
What do characters do?
While there are options for characters to come from any level of the social ladder of 4 different cultures (Races), the people i run for regularly are a bunch of hardy adventurers working for the most part for the High Thrown, but also in a few cases for other governments and factions.
How are the rewarded.
Players are rewarded with more points to their skills after each session. Character are rewarded with money, treasures, sometimes a title etc.
The games biggest selling point?
Hmm tough question....I would say the chance to play in a game world which is hopefully very beliveable, and three dimentional, with NPCs who will act and do things regardless of what the players do at times. A world where while you might think you already know all its secrets, there are always just a few more just below the surface you didn't know about. A place where people are not evil for the sake of being evil, but because they are working toward their own ends.
Are the rules complicated?
While they have a lot to cover, no they are very easy to get your head around. For the most part i'm using the mechanic of ((Skill + Attribute) divided by 2) against a D%
Pagrin :-)

[Mike Holmes]

Here's a little reality check. Are you sure that your game is better than all of the games on this list: http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/freerpgs/bykeyword/fantasy.html

These are hundreds of fantasy RPGs that are available for free. If you're game isn't better, then why would anybody pay for it, right?

Now, assuming it is better, what part makes it better? Is it the setting? The system? Both? Can you really say that your setting distinguishes itself from the mass of other games that are available for free? OK, what about the published games which ostensibly should be better quality? Is your setting better than Earthdawn's, for instance?

Next, for system, if your game is actually generic, then what makes it better as a generic system for the many, many generic systems out there: http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/freerpgs/bykeyword/universal.html

What makes it better than, say, the fifth edition of Hero System?

One way to make your game unique is to marry the system and the setting. Then no other game will have the mechanics that you have, and no system can be used to support the setting as well.

I agree with Contracycle's comments in an abstract way. The problem is that, if I'm going to put the effort into making the mechanical conversion of a setting to my favorite system, then why shouldn't I just make the setting up at the same time? Making "enough" setting to play is actually very, very easy. The vast majority of setting material published never gets used, because a little goes a long way. So, I'm not sure that such setting material is at all useful. More to the point, if I'm converting material to a new setting, then material for another game is probably just fine. As Contra says, it's somewhat of a hassle to have to parse the current system, but not so much that I don't already own enough setting material from other games to run games for the rest of my life.

So, I'm dubious. As Contra says, if I want a setting, there are a ton to take from already in the form of fiction. Sure, not organized precisely like a RPG GM needs, but, again, if I'm doing a conversion anyhow...

The real key would be in coming up with RPG setting material that converted iteself to your favorite system somehow. But I don't see how you're going to do that. So, in the interim, might as well make it playable for at least one game without conversion. The notes alone actually tell the converter a lot about how to make the conversions. That is, it's easier for me to convert ogres to my system if I see that they have a 23 STR, than it is if all I have is "Ogres are monstrously strong."

Mike

[Pagrin]

Ok all very valid comments Mike. Granted not what I wanted to hear, but still valid and well put (A lot of places I post, have very bad manners.)
However while I agree a generic anything, is a hard think to sell if you can get it for free, shops are full of them.
After all a very good sales technique can sell anything to anyone....sometimes. Having said that I can always realise the game for free if I can't sell it, but why not try and sell it first.
Also while I note you commants about convertion, I have also noted that people who are new to gaming may not be ready to take very big steps yet, with settings and mechanics etc. So while they will one day learn to change things to suit themselves to start with they buy things already made.
Still you have given me food for thought. And I will indeed be chewing.
Pagrin :-)

[ethan_greer]

You are all forgetting about Harn - this is an RPG setting, presented as such, with no included game mechanics. Just wanted to pop in and mention it. So, Pagrin, there is a precedence for a setting-only RPG publication.