Yet another system hunt...

[Rich Stokes]

OK, I know there has to be someone here with a good idea for this:

I'm getting ready to run a game based on a "Superpunk" setting I've been kicking around for ages.  The basic, capsule version of the setting is:

A small group of Supers were created towards the end of WWII.  As years went on, these supers grew in power as they learened to control their gifts, becoming almost godlike.  Around the mid 80s, all the British Supers from the original WWII series along with some of the early US Supers simply dissapear from sight.  At the end of 2001, these Supers re-appear and stage a coup in the US, effectively installing themselves at rulers of the country.  They issue statements to the rest of the world that anyone who interfere's with them will suffer the same fate.

Fast forward to 2035

For the last 30 years, an increasing number of people have been *born* with superpowers.  Nobody really knows why, or if they do they're not saying.  The USA is a police state governed by the Supers who took over 34 years ago.  They rarely appear in public, and nobody really knows what they're up to, but rumours of power struggles are rife.  The government tries to hire as many of these young supers as possible and tends to keep an eye on the ones that don't join.  Itas no illegal to be an unlicensed super, but it's not an easy life.

Enter the players: Young supers making their way on the streets of the cities.  Criminals & freedom fighters but defintately the good guys.  These are the leather clad supers of the 21st century, not the colourful spandex types from the funnypapers.

Basically, Underground without the insane mechanics.  In fact, if underground had a working system I wouldn't need to think about this.

System:

I'm thinking something fairly gamist and simy.  To gauge this, current frontrunners are WEG d6 (+nice and easy, +fast to play, -doesn't really have a system for superpowers per se), WW Storyteller (+easy +quick +sort of has a powers system from Vampire etc that ought to be easy enough to adapt, -players may have preconceptions) and GURPS (+great powers system, -really much too fiddly)

There's going to be a lot of action here and all the characters will be fairly physical.  I need a system that differentiates between a fast, agile character and a strong, tough one.  Streamlined combat would be ideal.  There'll be lots of gunplay, but I want to balance melee too.  Unobtrusive and consistent mechanics are my holy grail.  I'm looking at something with the feel of action Scifi TV.  Like say, Buffy or Dark Angel.  Grim and gritty, without being brutal or particularly realistic.

Other things I've looked at:

Wushu: Nice, but I'm not comfortable with this for the non-combat parts of the game.
d20: Don't even get me started...
Godlike: Ruled itself out for costing nearly 30 GBP.
Fudge: Attributes and skills that don't relate doesn't work for me.  Don't like the aesthetic of a system where zero is the average.
Heroquest: could work, but will need lots of input from me to get all the attributes etc

I'd also prefer to avoid any percentile based systems.

So, any ideas?  Have I overlooked something really obvious?  Is there a great supers gome out there that I've missed?  Or did anyone ever take the trouble to sanitize underground?

[Kaare Berg]

get a hold of Godlike, and give it a few tweaks.

Best superhero game I've seen.

K

[ethan_greer]

White Wolf made a supers game called Aberrant.  I know nothing about it other than its existence, but I thought I'd mention it in case you hadn't heard of it.

It's not Gamist or Simmy, but Daniel Solis PUNK is wicked cool, and fits the "punk" part of your concept.

Savage Worlds is cool, and fits the Gamist/Simmy category. And quick dynamic combat? Oh yeah. Quick start rules are available for free from www.greatwhitegames.com. Worth a look.

[Ron Edwards]

Hiya,

Oh I hate to be a butt-head like this, but ...

"Help me figure out which system to use" threads really aren't Actual Play. Or ... damn, they could be actual play, but it's impossible to tell which ones are and which ones aren't.

Let's see. Is there a solution that will fly for this particular thread? I think so. Rich, tell us about the game prep so far. Whom have you talked to? Who's expressed interest? Have you guys set up a schedule yet, or is it a matter of "tell us what game and then we'll commit"? Or anything else relevant.

Oddly enough, I think the answers to these and similar questions will help answer your system questions.

Best,
Ron

[Valamir]

Hey Rich, your setting idea is almost word for word the setting premise of Brave New World, a game line unfortuneately cut short by issues with publishers.  Matt Forbeck wrote it originally for Pinnacle, then it went to AEG, and AEG dropped it in one of their periodic shakeups.

WWII Superheroes:  Check, an entire supplement dedicated to that period

USA is a Police State:  Check, including wonderful cameos by historical figures.

Characters are underground super freedom fighters: Check, although options are available to work for the state too.

The main big superheroes disappeared:  Check, in a big hero vs. villain battle that obliterated Chicago and left a big circular bay where the city used to be.  Crescent City, built from scratch along the shores of that bay is now the default "Gotham" of the setting.


Its a great system with an interesting twist on what super powers are.  And it has one of the best power stunt mechanics I've seen.

You should be able to find used copies pretty reasonably.

[Rich Stokes]

"Help me figure out which system to use" threads really aren't Actual Play. Or ... damn, they could be actual play, but it's impossible to tell which ones are and which ones aren't.

Understood.  But I thought long and hard (OK, for a couple of minutes) about where to post this and couldn't find anywhere more appropriate.  But your right, it's not *technically* actual play.

Let's see. Is there a solution that will fly for this particular thread? I think so. Rich, tell us about the game prep so far.

So far I've written some of the setting up and talked it over with the players.  Haven't got to character concepts as such, just that the players are thinking "street supers".

Whom have you talked to?

Currently it's my usual group of 3 "core" players, plus a couple of other guys who really like the idea but aren't regular roleplayers.  As such I imagine that they'll play maybe the odd session, so I want the ongoing structure to allow for players being in and out a lot.  The 2 non core players realise that their characters will be satalite characetrs who'll drift in and out of the story, and their happy with that given their level of commitment.

Who's expressed interest?

Everyone so far.

Have you guys set up a schedule yet, or is it a matter of "tell us what game and then we'll commit"?

This is the thing: It'll be part of our regular Tuesday night gaming slot.  Currently we're just finishing up some StarWars/Paladin, previously we were playing Shadowrun, which we've all enjoyed despite it's flaws.  Someone has a yen to run an old Warhammer 40K based games using some homebrew rules, which will probably be next up, so this will kick off in, say 6 - 8 weeks if that all goes as planned.  Everone is commited, I have their trust not to fuck things up, and to bow out if it all goes horribly wrong.  We've known each other for years and this group's been going for about 4 years now, on and off.  A lot of stuff ends up being played by ear, ruleswise.  System matters and all, but as a group we don't ever really stop to look things up, just GM improv anything that we don't all know rules for.  We're all in it for the ride, rather than the "crunchy bits", but we like the way the Crunchy Bits make the ride what it is.

Or anything else relevant.

Um, can't think of anything right now, but i'm sure I'm missing something.

[Rich Stokes]

K:

As stated, Godlike priced itself out of my options.

Ethan:

I'd managed to totally forget Aberrant.  I too have never played or read it, but I might see if i can nab a copy from someone I know.

Punk is indeed Wicked Cool, but totally at odds with what I want right now.  Although I may nab some meta rules for what I'm doing.

Savage Worlds appears to be getting a lot of good press at the moment.  I'll check the quickstart and try to figure out what ill the fuss is about.

Ralph:

Brave new world was onse I'd heared of, but then I managed to get it confused with "Nemesis: Perfect World" and discounted it.  But it does indeed sound very similar.  Does it have the future tech thing?  Regardless, I'll have to try and find a copy somewhere.

Basically, I think what I'm trying to do is a cross between an old 2000ad strip called Zenith and the old RPG, Underground, neither of which I think really made much of an impression on the world at large.  And I'm reluctant to say something like "Underground done right", but the rules for that game really made my eyes bleed, but the setting was close to what I want.

Some great ideas, thanks much!

Cheers,

Rich

[Valamir]

Brave new world was onse I'd heared of, but then I managed to get it confused with "Nemesis: Perfect World" and discounted it. But it does indeed sound very similar. Does it have the future tech thing? Regardless, I'll have to try and find a copy somewhere.

I think the actual setting was current day, so you may have to fast forward 30 years.  But there were rules for super gadgetry and the like, and I seem to remember nonsuper human SWAT teams armed with various hitech gear to enable them to confront supers.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Everyone, let's get away from system-hunt/compare altogether. Rich, it makes much more sense to me to shift the question you've asked to where it belongs: what does the group want? Is there a particular reason that you can't bring in two to five RPG core books that might be OK, have a big browse & chatter session, and have them simply choose?

Every time I've done this, it's resulted in rapid-fire group character creation that same session. I very strongly suggest that anything we free-associate about concerning "the best" game (especially for supers! jeez) is going to be hugely insignificant compared to doing this instead.

Also, Rich, this thread might be some interesting reading for you: Underground RPG - has anyone played it?

Best,
Ron

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Whoops, forgot this important part of the latest post.

Rich, here's what I'm looking at:

Several role-players, all of whom know each other and who are used to using different systems (more or less; I suspect homogenizing is going on, which is fine). They're all agreed to a very basic shared concept, "street supers."

You've already got the setting. You already have the players, and they've expressed interest. You have everything you need to decide upon a system, and frankly, there's no point whatsoever in bringing this question to the Forge. That's why it didn't seem to fit in any forum.

That goes double if this discussion is supposed to be influencing a purchase decision on your part. What you choose to buy is definitely not a Forge issue.

I'm trying to nudge this thread into relevance, and if it doesn't get there, I'll have to close it. Can you work with me on that, everyone? Right now, the only thing that's been brought up that's even close is to understand the negotiation-process, specific to this particular group, which results in playing game X instead of game Y.

Best,
Ron

[Rich Stokes]

Ron,

I understand from where you come.  At least I hope I do.

The question isn't and never was "what's the best Supers system?" it was meant to be "What kind of system will work for my group?"

But then I didn't really tell anyone anything about my group.

The choice process is fairly straightforward, but I fear that it relates a bit *too* much to my group and it's specific dynamics to be relevant for anyone else.

The game concept isn't original enough to really merit designing a system.  Therfore I can't see releasing it as a game.  I think we can all agree on that.

Group dynamics go something like this:

Rich (me): Runs most of the games, likes to play when given the opportunity.  Enjoys the creation process of a new "game", and by that I mean what used to be called a campaign.  I also like specifically running non-standard games.  I generally don't get excited by cookie-cutter campaign concepts.  Something doesn't really have to be that far off centre for me to really dig it though.  For example, playing Shadowrun as cops, or setting a supers game in a grim future.  Not original, but not really hardcore mainstream.  When I get to play, I tend to aim for the opposite of whatever character I plyed last time I played.  But rarely opt for a combat character.

Cass: Loves character play, generally wants to play charming and rogueish characters.  often comes up with some of the worst jokes and tends to steer the conversation and game toward the jokey and less serious, which personally suits me fine.  Also runs the occasional game, usually horror or horror action stuff that works well because of his sense of humour.  Everything he runs ends up being very dark humour.

Ben: Relative newcomer to roleplaying, but not to us as friends.  Didn't roleplay for ages until he joined the group about 2 years ago.  Has a sense of humour which appreciates the jokes Cass and I tell, and joins in, but not to the same degree.  Tends to be the players Naysayer, pointing out why plans aren't going to work in character a lot etc.  Again, big on IC stuff and character play, but also more of a problem solver than Cass.  He's the one that grins biggest when a badguy takes lots of damage for instance.  Likes to play just about anything, but often ends up playing a combat orientated guys because he ends up having very few character ideas and doesn't know his way around the game settings like the rest of us do.  One of the reasons for this new setting coming about was that I wanted to put him on more of an even footing with the others.

Stuart: He's the quiet one.  Tends to want to play the techie, merchant or healer, but also wants to pitch in with everything else.  Mainly a problem solver who likes to stay in character.  Occasionally runs games, but REALLY doesn't want narrative control while playing.  Has a tendancy to let himself be "shouted down" by the others, especially Ben.  Probably the most rules friendly player.  Tends not to want the limelight.

One interesting issue is that all the players like games which have a fair amount of action in.  Doesn't have to be combat, car chases and such are fine.  But also none of them really ever want to play the standard figher type character.  So everyone makes characters and makes them competent physically, but they never concentrate on physical prowess.  Which is fine by me because I'm happy to run things for characters like that.

System wise, there are several ground rules that I insist on for a variety of reasons.  These apply to games I run, but also weigh heavily if I'm playing.

No system shall have experience levels.
No system shall have character classes per se.
No system shall require random character generation.

Point 3 also includes systems what are primarily random, but which include tacked on options for creating a character rather than rolling them.

These rules only apply to "serious" systems.  Silly or parody ones I care a lot less about.  Having said that, a lot of things we play end up being parodies anyway because that's just what makes us tick.

Basically I have a group who're more into the "other" stuff that's usually not covered by the rules of a game, the stuff that 90% of systems leave as freeform.  Like the social interaction.  System is perhaps then, less relevant to us than to some other groups.  I still think that System Matters (TM), but only insomuch as any system that works (ie isn't awful) will be fine for us.  As long as it Doesn't Get In The Way (TM).

Thank you for the Underground thread.  Very interesting to see that a number of other folks feel exactly like I do about the game.  Marshal Law, yes.  One of my favourite comics, and undoubtedly an influence on me.

For the record (and so that we can lay that particular subject to rest) it looks like I'll use Aberrant for a number of the reasons I mention earlier (easy, familiar core, I can borrow a copy, minimal work for me etc).

You're right about plonking a bunch of rulebooks on the table: I can't do that.  I don't have a system that suits this "out of the box".  Apart from Gurps, I don't have any Supers games (apart from Underground, and lets not go there).  Which is why I was looking at adapting one.  And the one that would need the least work won.

And I don't want to piss anyone off, especially not you, Ron, but a similar thread I posted here garnered lots of useful input from many people, including yourself.  That was more of a "How shall I spend some money".  As a result, I felt that this was a appropriate topic here.  So, um, sorry if it's not.

[rylen dreskin]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned HERO and CHAMPIONS.  I had my first really fun superhero games in that system.

It meets all your requriements.  It's sim/gamist with universal mechanics.  Its got a good system to provide character hooks and encourage creativity.  The bullet time combat can be slow, but rolling LOTS of dice is always fun.

It's got problems of course.  Combat can be slow, even compared to high level d20.  Character creation takes some time to get the hang of.  MinMaxing is a constant temptation.  And it has a more imposing reputation then it deserves.

Hope this helps.

Rylen

[wyrm]

This one's easy. Aberrant. Definitely.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Time for this thread to be closed. No more posting, please.

Best,
Ron