IGC Results Discussion: At the Dawn

[greyorm]

Here's another update to progress on "At the Dawn":

1) As Dav was drooling over the possibility, I've created a cover pice for it. It ain't finished, but nearly so.

2) I can't find the name generation program I used to use to mix language sounds, so I haven't done much about names for things.

3) I've added the following piece about Color to the text and added a section on Returnign to the West. I desire commentary on both. Thanks!

Added to the section on Color

Each group should create a small "Color Bible" at the beginning of play, describing in short detail (a sentence or two) people, places, events, creatures, and items of the setting. It need not be exhaustive or all encompassing; this will help provide focus to play as players will be personally served by tying their characters and game events to the setting material and background during play, and form a basis for player Color-use by providing a common source for each member of the group from which to draw inspiration and broad details.[/list:u]

Returning to the West

Within them, all elves know they should return to the immortal and undying lands of the West, but Creation has ensnared them with its beauty, and they have lingered long. Before they can return to the West, they must recover and perfect their Virtue, and abandon their attachment to Creation.

At the beginning of play, the group should discuss the Temptation found in Creation each elf faces that keeps him specifically from returning to the West. This Temptation is the Enamoring, and is linked to a specific Virtue.

Of course, most of these situations entail the risk of Virtue loss, as well – for in striving against vice, more vice might be created, and another Virtue tested. Even if one is enamored of their lover, what would willingly abandoning her to torture and horror in the black pits of the Enemy mean for the elf's soul? The elf must find his path through these tests himself, for there are no set answers to guide them.

For example, many elves love to stand upon the seashore, for they believe the Song of Creation can be heard most strongly there. Thus, it may be their attraction to the sea and it's both dark-and-brilliant nature that keeps them bound to the East: they cannot bear to leave the seas of Creation behind.

The Enamoring here may be opposed to Honor – that the elf's obsession keeps him from giving respect to all else which should be respected; or it may be opposed to Responsibility – the elf perhaps puts aside his other duties in order to stand at the seashore, including his greatest duty: to return to the West.

Another common example is many elves are motivated by the desire to reclaim the Light of the Two Trees. Their desire to reclaim the Light is what keeps them bound to Creation, thus their test of Virtue may be to have the Courage to abandon their self-proclaimed mission and return to the West.

The wilderness may test the elf's resolve, he may love the freedom and beauty of the wilds, fooling himself, for true freedom would be in returning to the gentle hills and quiet forests of the West, not enslaved to his desire...thus the test would be against the Virtue of Truth.

Nor must it necessarily be Creation itself that ensnares the elf, but another elf there in Creation: a lover or the object of courting, whom the elf has devoted themselves to.

In order to overcome the Enamoring, each elf must have a rating of 10 in the specific Virtue Creation is testing before being able to return to the West. Once the elf reaches 10 in that Virtue, he is compelled to return across the seas, his attachment to Creation finally put aside.

Yet Creation is a difficult beauty to let go...even if the elf has a 10, he cannot have a rating of 0 in any other Virtue(s). He must maintain at least 1 point in all Virtues, or his way to the West is blocked, and he must strive to attain the Virtue necessary to return.

The immortal elves, in their endless spans of time may grow apart from one thing and towards another. During a game, any player may declare the elf's Enamoring has changed from one subject to another; the Virtue being tested may also be changed at this time. It does not matter whether the Virtue is higher or lower than the current Enamoring. In this fashion, the player may exercise some control of how long his elf's story plays out.[/list:u]I'm also desiring to add something about how a 0 rating in a Virtue makes the elf susceptible to corruption by the Enemy; but I don't really know where to go with that, or if my Gamism is starting to leak into my Narrativism.

I'm working on some examples of Virtue challenges, and thinking about how play should go. I might need to run a playtest before I'm really able to add that text. Unfortunately, I have the feeling this might bump it above the 150% for the IGC publication.

[Mike Holmes]

1) As Dav was drooling over the possibility, I've created a cover pice for it. It ain't finished, but nearly so.

Sweet. Dav's not the only one drooling.

2) I can't find the name generation program I used to use to mix language sounds, so I haven't done much about names for things.

Just mix and match syllables of the original names until you come up with something that seems right? Would that work?

Added to the section on Color

Each group should create a small "Color Bible" at the beginning of play, describing in short detail (a sentence or two) people, places, events, creatures, and items of the setting. It need not be exhaustive or all encompassing; this will help provide focus to play as players will be personally served by tying their characters and game events to the setting material and background during play, and form a basis for player Color-use by providing a common source for each member of the group from which to draw inspiration and broad details.[/list:u]

Sounds good. But it needs an example. And, yes, it should be usable as is. Sure the players should make the stuff up if they feel like it. But if there was a simple default to follow, it would make things much easier for first time players.

Returning to the West

Within them, all elves know they should return to the immortal and undying lands of the West, but Creation has ensnared them with its beauty, and they have lingered long. Before they can return to the West, they must recover and perfect their Virtue, and abandon their attachment to Creation.

Generally speaking this is very neat, IMO. A good solution that provides the overall direction to the game. No, this isn't really Gamist. The question isn't really "will the elf reach the West?" but "In what manner will the elf reach the West?"

Great examples here. The vision on the game is really starting to become clear.

The Enamoring here ... may be opposed to Responsibility – the elf perhaps puts aside his other duties in order to stand at the seashore, including his greatest duty: to return to the West.

If this is the case, then Responsibility is always an option, no? Is it true that all virtues are applicable to all Emamorings? Or just this one? Might deserve some special mention?

Another common example is many elves are motivated by the desire to reclaim the Light of the Two Trees. Their desire to reclaim the Light is what keeps them bound to Creation, thus their test of Virtue may be to have the Courage to abandon their self-proclaimed mission and return to the West.

I'm uneasy with the Two Tree's reference. Would it be too much to replace that with something else? Am I being overly paraniod?

In order to overcome the Enamoring, each elf must have a rating of 10 in the specific Virtue Creation is testing before being able to return to the West. Once the elf reaches 10 in that Virtue, he is compelled to return across the seas, his attachment to Creation finally put aside.

Yet Creation is a difficult beauty to let go...even if the elf has a 10, he cannot have a rating of 0 in any other Virtue(s). He must maintain at least 1 point in all Virtues, or his way to the West is blocked, and he must strive to attain the Virtue necessary to return.

Nice, simple, effective mechanics. My own interpretation would be that an elf with a zero doesn't want to go West. That is, either he effectively has a new vice keeping him from going, or he feels that he's not worthy.

The immortal elves, in their endless spans of time may grow apart from one thing and towards another. During a game, any player may declare the elf's Enamoring has changed from one subject to another; the Virtue being tested may also be changed at this time. It does not matter whether the Virtue is higher or lower than the current Enamoring. In this fashion, the player may exercise some control of how long his elf's story plays out.

Very cool, but leads right into a question that I have about the idea as a whole. What happens to the player of an elf that goes West? What if one player wants to play a really long game, and another player only wants to play for one session?

I'm also desiring to add something about how a 0 rating in a Virtue makes the elf susceptible to corruption by the Enemy; but I don't really know where to go with that, or if my Gamism is starting to leak into my Narrativism.

I think that's Narrativist. I can't see where the Step on Up would be, so it's really just a matter of the elf dabbling in low numbers - much like dabbling in low humanity for Sorcerer. The player can elevate these if he really wants to do so.

I'm not sure what corruption would do, however. Does the player lose the character? Can it be redeemed? Can a once corrupt elf ever go West?

I'm working on some examples of Virtue challenges, and thinking about how play should go. I might need to run a playtest before I'm really able to add that text. Unfortunately, I have the feeling this might bump it above the 150% for the IGC publication.

That's a guideline. If it's over, a little, no big deal. If it's over a lot, we'll look at editing options...The point is don't worry about that now, just get the material down.

It looks like it's coming together well.

Mike

[greyorm]

Sweet. Dav's not the only one drooling.

Cool. I'm flattered.

Just mix and match syllables of the original names until you come up with something that seems right? Would that work?

Yeah, I just like randomness in such matters. But that's what I'm going to do.

Sounds good. But it needs an example. And, yes, it should be usable as is. Sure the players should make the stuff up if they feel like it. But if there was a simple default to follow, it would make things much easier for first time players.

It's my feeling that a lot of the text of the game serves (in part) as the Color Bible already; but you are correct that a more specific and concentrated example needs to be created for players. I'll work on that, too. Just a page, or a half-page would be good, I think.

If this is the case, then Responsibility is always an option, no? Is it true that all virtues are applicable to all Emamorings? Or just this one? Might deserve some special mention?

Excellent questions. I was thinking about the very subject while writing, but don't have a way to put it quite yet.

So, in answer: Quite likely, yes. No. I don't feel so, but groups are free to prove me wrong. I can see Enamoring situations where (for example) Hospitality would not work, at least not without a lot of stretching.

That's likely the advice I should give, while you can fit nearly any Virtue to nearly any situation, don't force-fit Virtues into situations. Go with the obvious and most inherently logical choice(s), rather than trying to argue your way into the connection.

I'm uneasy with the Two Tree's reference. Would it be too much to replace that with something else? Am I being overly paraniod?

I think you're being paranoid. I like the imagery, and I think it would take a great deal away from the Tolkienish heritage, diluting the homage, to change it.

In fact, I went back and read through/skimmed a good chunk of the Silmarillion a couple weeks ago just to see how good my memory was, and because I wanted to see how close to the line I might actually be -- while I recalled many of the elements correctly, I was surprised at how much I'd utterly forgotten, or how much I'd mixed them up in my presentation. I'm confident that the differences are severe enough that they constitute a unique take on the subject as the game text stands now.

Nice, simple, effective mechanics. My own interpretation would be that an elf with a zero doesn't want to go West. That is, either he effectively has a new vice keeping him from going, or he feels that he's not worthy.

It's never the latter, it's always the draw of Creation, of a vice born by being enamored and addicted to Creation.

Very cool, but leads right into a question that I have about the idea as a whole. What happens to the player of an elf that goes West? What if one player wants to play a really long game, and another player only wants to play for one session?

Hrm, I hadn't considered that really...
The player leaves the game? All kidding aside, I'll have to think how to handle this. Ok, folks, if you were playing in a game and your character's time was over by your choice, but everyone else kept playing, what would you want to see happen? What do you think would be a fair and reasonable way to deal with the game?

I think that's Narrativist. I can't see where the Step on Up would be, so it's really just a matter of the elf dabbling in low numbers - much like dabbling in low humanity for Sorcerer. The player can elevate these if he really wants to do so.

Alright. I was mostly worried that it was too much number-juggling, removing the focus from setting and character, and shoving the mechanics forefront in a "must...have...this" sort-of-way.

I'm not sure what corruption would do, however. Does the player lose the character? Can it be redeemed? Can a once corrupt elf ever go West?

Excellent questions, the very same I asked myself, actually, and thus exactly the reason I'm not sure where to go with it. Though I really like the idea and the evocative imagery of an elf falling to the Enemy, I'm not sure how much it adds to the game, or how to have it add anything right now.

Thanks for the comments, Mike!

[hanschristianandersen]

Ok, folks, if you were playing in a game and your character's time was over by your choice, but everyone else kept playing, what would you want to see happen? What do you think would be a fair and reasonable way to deal with the game?

Assuming that I was still interested in playing, but the right thing for the narrative would be for my character's time to end...

... why not take another page from the Silmarillion and play a mortal Man bound to one of the remaining Elves by fealty, friendship, or destiny?  That would keep the player in the game, while emphasizing the changing nature of the world, as the Elves leave for the West.

[Mike Holmes]

It's my feeling that a lot of the text of the game serves (in part) as the Color Bible already; but you are correct that a more specific and concentrated example needs to be created for players. I'll work on that, too. Just a page, or a half-page would be good, I think.

That's about exactly what I was thinking. Doesn't have to be extensive, just evocative.

That's likely the advice I should give, while you can fit nearly any Virtue to nearly any situation, don't force-fit Virtues into situations. Go with the obvious and most inherently logical choice(s), rather than trying to argue your way into the connection.

That sounds perfect to me.

I think you're being paranoid. I like the imagery, and I think it would take a great deal away from the Tolkienish heritage, diluting the homage, to change it.

Hmmmm. You're probably right.

Nice, simple, effective mechanics. My own interpretation would be that an elf with a zero doesn't want to go West. That is, either he effectively has a new vice keeping him from going, or he feels that he's not worthy.

It's never the latter, it's always the draw of Creation, of a vice born by being enamored and addicted to Creation.

OK. What about the possibility of the elf gaining a new Enamoring related to the virtue in question, when he hits zero?

Hrm, I hadn't considered that really...
The player leaves the game? All kidding aside, I'll have to think how to handle this. Ok, folks, if you were playing in a game and your character's time was over by your choice, but everyone else kept playing, what would you want to see happen? What do you think would be a fair and reasonable way to deal with the game?

I like Hans' idea. In fact, the mortals they play could die again and again, and they'd just make more. I think the effect could be that they could actually support or tempt the other PCs. The idea being that the players already "out" of the game would be trying to make the other players finish as well, one way or another.

Excellent questions, the very same I asked myself, actually, and thus exactly the reason I'm not sure where to go with it. Though I really like the idea and the evocative imagery of an elf falling to the Enemy, I'm not sure how much it adds to the game, or how to have it add anything right now.

Going with the above idea, I think the elf should fall, and then the player keeps playing the character as a servant of evil that tries to corrupt the other PCs. In summary: lose your character to the West, and play a human, lose your character to the enemy, and play the dark side. Either way, you push for an ending for the PCs still in play.

Mike