Tweaking with the dice mechanics

[MonkeyWrench]

I've got a question for all the systems tweakers and number crunchers out there - What effect would changing the dice mechanics of TROS have on the game?  In my experience with dice pools systems I've always had a player who was more concerned with lowering their TNs than with wanting to gain more dice.  This seems to go against the attutide of TROS which says that more dice is a good thing.

So what I'd like to know is how would game play be effected if you tweaked with the Target Numbers?

Example #1
Lets say I fix the TNs like Exalted or Burning Wheel.  First off that means every weapon, shield, and spell has the same TN.  How does this effect the game?

Example #2
Lets say that I get rid of TNs altogether and use a system similar to Sorcerer or Donjon.  What changes to weapons and armor would need to take place for this to be viable?

-Jim

[Sir Mathodius Black]

Well, regarding example one, I think that each weapon and shield having its own TN is part of the realism aspect of ROS.  In other games like DND, for example, because there are no weapon TN's, it basically means that hitting someone with a Greatsword is the same as hitting someone with a short sword and vise versa.  Also, dont you think its easier to cut with a greatsword rather than thrust?  
The whole TN mechanism adds another level of depth and realism to the whole sustem.

Regarding example 2, im not familiar with either of those two systems so i cant help you there

[MonkeyWrench]

I'm not disputing the depth or realism of the way weapons work, nor (I'm trying to anticipate another argument here) am I trying to discourage certain players from only using certain weapons, for example rapiers or high quality quarterstaves.  What I'm trying to do is brainstorm.  What if TNs were fixed?  What if no matter what you were trying to do the TN would be 7 or 6 just to make things even.

Should extra dice be given to increase the pool for certain basic manuevers to simulate how easy it is to stab with a rapier or chop someone down with a greatsword?

[Starshadow]

I have to agree with Sir Black on #1; take away each weapons individual TN, and you lose a lot of the realism in TRoS fighting.

Should extra dice be given to increase the pool for certain basic manuevers to simulate how easy it is to stab with a rapier or chop someone down with a greatsword?

Then what's the point of fixing TN's if you add or subtract dice depending on maneuver/weapon? That's just getting the same results with different means.
Wouldn't that be kinda unnecessary and more difficult than the original system?

[nsruf]

That's just getting the same results with different means.
Wouldn't that be kinda unnecessary and more difficult than the original system?

Depends what you call difficult. Having two distinct ways to influence effectiveness, either through TN or number of dice, is also a difficulty of sorts. Deciding for one method or the other could make the game run smoother and would definitely make it easier to compare effects.

E.g. what is the better defensive maneuver:

a) Full Evade with 6 dice (TN 4)
b) Block with 7 dice (TN 5)

Both have an expected number of successes of 4.2, but option a) has a smaller variance, so gives more consistent results. For defense, I'd choose option a). Given similar odds for an attack, I might prefer option b), because a very good result is likelier.

If all your dice are rolled against TN 6, you just have to compare the number of dice to know which is better.

However, the variable TN system has an advantage over the variable number of dice: even a barely competent character has some chance of success at a difficult task. With a ST of 3, I can beat a TN 15 if I'm lucky, but never a TN 6 after subtracting 3 dice. I.e., you have a sudden and rapid dropoff in chance of success from a 2 die penalty (50 % with 3 dice on TN 6) to a 3 die penalty (no chance).

[spunky]

Then what's the point of fixing TN's if you add or subtract dice depending on maneuver/weapon? That's just getting the same results with different means.
Wouldn't that be kinda unnecessary and more difficult than the original system?

I think MR is looking for a way to preserve ROS's realism while reducing one of the variables in the system.  And whilst the argument of "it ain't broke" certainly applies, I can see MR's point.  Of a group of five, only myself and another love detail and grit in our systems; the others want as few rules to remember as possible (and yet, they're the ones who love D20!  Go figure...)

One of the things both BURNING WHEEL and SORCERER have got going for them is the use of a universal mechanic, which simplifies the learning curve.  A common criticism of TROS (one I don't really share, but I'm weighing in anyway) is that it uses a different system for skills than combat, and variable DN/TNs, which requires players to put down the f*cking Xbox and pay attention.

And in answer to MR's question -- I think granting bonus dice to weapons when executing maneuvers is an excellent alternate system -- a greatsword could be penalized dice for thrusting, given extra dice for cutting -- and such bonuses/penalties could be extended to Maneuvers as well.  But that would require players to pay even MORE attention, so it wouldn't work in my group.

Might be a cool thing for BW though -- like the discussion about porting TROS maneuvers and initiative to replace BW's scripting system.

Etc.

[MonkeyWrench]

One of the things both BURNING WHEEL and SORCERER have got going for them is the use of a universal mechanic, which simplifies the learning curve. A common criticism of TROS (one I don't really share, but I'm weighing in anyway) is that it uses a different system for skills than combat, and variable DN/TNs, which requires players to put down the f*cking Xbox and pay attention.

In some ways I feel it is a valid criticism, but that isn't really relavent to this thread. Removing the variable TNs goes hand in hand with trying to find a unifying dice mechanic. For skills I've been toying with the idea of Attribute + Skill = total dice ppol.  Of course then that means that you wan skills to be higher instead of lower and character creation needs to be tweaked as well.

I understand that it looks like I'm trying to mess with things that are perfectly fine, but I'll do this with any system I run.  I don't discriminate when it comes to tweaking with system mechanics; although the simpler the system the less tweaking I usually do.

One thing that I don't have much skill with is figuring out what the quantifiable effects of such tweaking would be.  How will removing the variable TNs effect the game on a statistical level?  It'd be nice to know so that I won't have to worry that I'm somehow screwing my players without them or myself knowing

[Durgil]

I don't know about Sorcerer (sorry Ron), but the greater number of successes rolled for both BW and TRoS results in more damage.  Where you might want to look is at the dice pool probabilities that I have made up for both games.  Burning Wheels is here, and the one for The Riddle of Steel is here.  Without looking all of this stuff up, I'd say you would either have to add or subtract dice from the pool to even things out, though you could also try to add or subtract successes rolled.  BW does the latter through raising or lowering the determined Ob, or obsticle.

[Jaeger]

Yes TROS works fine as written - but then we are all familiar with the system and used to playing it as written aren't we ;)


The high number of variables is one thing I have noticed playing TROS

1: You can raise or lower the number of dice in your pool

2: You can raise or lower the TN for your die pool

3: You can raise or lower the number of successes needed to succeed at a task

- All three can be done at once; and all are subject to GM fiat.

Eliminating some of these variables may not be a bad thing.

Perhaps: Fix the TN at a given # - have dice adding or subtracting from pools a function of tools(weapons etc.) and combat maneuvers -  have GM fiat relegated to determining the number of successes needed for a task when it is not readily apperant.



Personally, I think a more universal mechanic may be something to consider if/when a second edition is made.

All that being said - you'll never know the in-game implications of something unless you playtest them.

(on the BW forums someone did make a conversion useing TroS combat in thier BW game - and they are apparently playing it - so it does seem doable.)