Find the right color for humanist game

[Mike Holmes]

Define color.

Your game is a fantasy game? Like a fantasy hearbreaker, as you mentioned? Then you already have color, it seems to me. As we use it around here, color is just the in-game description of stuff that doesn't have a mechanical effect. So, do dwarves all have beards? That's color.

Are you looking for a particular mood?

In trying to see what you're looking for, using your definition, what would you say that the color of Vampire: The Masquerade is?

Mike

[contracycle]

Riddle of Steel is a bit (too) crunchy to me (personal taste), which is why I'll not play it, but SA's look cool. The concept of having them be intermediate stages of XP that are then used again is cool, but as a mechanic doesn't really excite me for YGAD. Adhering to your value does not make you a better swordfighter, in my book (if this is me interpreting the TROS rules wrong, apologies).

I don't think you are wrong strictly speaking, but i do think you've resorted to a default-sim analysis there.  the statement by system that a player gets more dice to roll does not imply that in reality a person becomes stronger say.  Thus the play of the game will be affected by this rule, eve if the rule is in your eyes unrealistic.

But I'm confused as to whether we are talking about System, or Colour, or Both.

My suggestion would be along these lines; it seems to me that the God Is Dead hyppothesis triggered two main responses, these being "all is lost" and the other being "we are now free".  So you could represent in the product by, say, having mutually opposed images on the side bar of each page; images of loss, despair, fuitlity and emptiness on one side contrasted with elation, self-discovery, and apotheosis on the other.

But thats Just colour, just one presentational idea.  Is that the kind of suggestion you are looking for?  Or do you mean rather "systematically embedded colour"?

[Tobias]

Mike - I'm using color as both a description of a feel for the in-game world (which would be like adding mood/atmosphere to generic setting, I guess), as well as that feel/style shining through in the actual written text.

I have no qualms with the way you use it (I'm all in favor of having mutual understanding/agreement of terms), but I read the definition of color in the provisional glossary to be a bit broader:

"Imagined details about any or all of System, Character, Setting, or Situation, added in such a way that does not change aspects of action or resolution in the imagined scene. One of the Components of Exploration. "

(I feel a bit of a prick for quoting 'scripture' at one of the old guys, but that's a n00b thing. :) )

Mood is undefined in the glossary, I think. If there's a definition out there that catches mood/atmosphere of the written text and mood/atmosphere of the game world that you (or anyone) can point me to, that would be fine. Or are such matters considered to be an innate part of the setting?

As to the color of vampire: a mix of gothicness, sensuality, brutality. More broad stroke concepts than dwarves have beards.

contracycle - good point. getting more dice doesn't automatically have to translate into a meaning of 'becoming better', of course. Let me just rephrase that I want to avoid the 'by adhering strongly to my principles of universal love, I became a better swordfighter'. (Where better is: 'skewers people more effectively', and not 'picks fights using superior ethical principles')

[Mike Holmes]

I actually checked the glossary just to be sure that the definition hadn't changed under me before I posted.

What you're talking about is mood. Which is part of color - don't get me wrong. But it's just one small part. You have a lot of your color already set out for you in having selected a fantasy setting. The setting tells us that there are dwarves, which have a +1 to Strength (or whatever). Any other imagined detail that doesn't have a mechanical reprecussion is color. So beards count (unless there's a beard length rule or something).

My point is that I think it would help to use the term mood and atmophere, or motifs - these are really what you're describing. And in acknowledging that you have a fantasy world to start helps us define that subset of color that will go along with the rest of the color. For instance, if this was not fantasy, I might suggest a feeling of industrial alienation. But that won't fit with the rest of the fantasy color (or it might provide an interesting juxtaposition if that's what you're after).

I say this because people are faliling about here suggesting mechanics and such, which are definitely system and not color. Because they haven't been given a jumping off point. Saying "fantasy" does that (hopefully).

I wasn't even sure that this was going to be a fantasy game for sure until you acknowledged that (could have been the modern-day counterpart to a fantasy hearbreaker, I dunno).

Mike

[Tobias]

Well, the posts HAVE drifted hither and yon, yes. The original question was just on 'color for humanist games' - which should've been color/mood for humanist games instead. The fantasy aspect was only emphasized due to the connection with YGAD - which is called a fantasy game.

Thanks for the clarification on mood/color. I would like the thread to proceed in the direction of 'mood' that would be applicable to (possibly fantasy) humanist games.

Before that happens, I would like to resolve one other thing:

I'm wondering about the qualification of fantasy -> dwarves. If many people feel like you like that fantasy automatically equates to a whole tolkien-esque bevvy of humanoids etc., then fantasy is definately not the correct label - at least not the way I'd look at it. All these things might be present, but mostly as myth, fables. Is that 'low' fantasy? 'hidden' fantasy? Cause I'm not looking to complicate the focus on humanity/humanism with several 'sub'races - or just simple orcbashing.

Industrial alienation would actually work in fantasy - getting a sort of steampunk, Arcanum-esque setting. But let's not go into that any further.

[Mike Holmes]

See, that's what I'm looking for. Basically you seem to have some vague ideas about setting, but you seem to be waffling. I assumed you meant "standard fantasy" (which means elves, dwarves, and, well, Tolkien), because of your use of "Fantasy Heartbreaker" (which are actually often identified by their variation on elves and such).

What I'm saying is that it's going to be hard to identify a proper mood without knowing what the other color is like. And that requires defining your setting.

BTW, if you want the game to be "settingless" like Sorcerer, that's fine. Just let us know. But, basically we need somewhere to jump off from. "Humanist" is just too little from which to begin. From that I can see anything from dowtrodden angsty moods, to lighthearted comedy and everything in between.

In fact, this is, in the end likely to come down to just some suggestions from which you're going to have to pick. Because these are really elemental decisions about the game. Really, people usually have a feel for these elements before starting off on their game.

Perhaps you could make mood selectable (like Sorcerer allows setting to be selectable)? If none is making itself feel obvious to you, then maybe make a game that can explor humanism in any mood.

Mike

[Eero Tuovinen]

Mike, IMO you're being unnecessarily difficult to Tobias, and drifting the thread to boot. Might be because you haven't got the same words he has, as I for one have no problem with his question and answering it. What he's looking for is not whether he should have dwarves (the "waffling over setting") or whether they should have beards (the "color"). He's looking for styles of presentation and writing that illustrate humanism, a philosophical idea. Take a look at my preliminary answer, which points him to the correct direction.

The color (the "style" as it'd be called in literature) of a humanist game is an interesting question, and it isn't nearly so fluid a matter as Mike seems to think. Philosophies have all kinds of strata associated with them (intertext, as it's so simply called), and the strongest color is gained by making use of those strata. Like, when doing a goth game, cultivated vampires are a good choice. When doing a humanist game, there are a number of elements that say "liberal", "free-thinking", "Socrates" and so on. Use them, and you have humanist color, entirely intependent from whether dwarves have beards.

To prove the point I'll continue my answer to Tobias and give some pointers that illustrate humanism as I understand it:

Humanism is generally either technology-optimistic or mystical. The former is usually argued in literature through celebration of human achievement. For a techop take write about the bravery and unbending backs of the humans who have taken the world as their toy. Soviet agitation is a real world example. Scifi, especially the military variety, is nearly always of this type. Techop humanism is usually concretely illustrated through heroes overcoming adversity thanks to their indomitable will (or failing while trying); you can include this either as background or as something that happens in-game. If I had to pick a single favourite english rendition of this ideal, it'd be Child of Fortune by Norman Spinrad; the protagonist, when faced with a choice between losing her individuality or life, chooses to preserve the former. Traveller had many of these themes.

Mystical humanism is a little rarer beast, and easily sidesteps into all kinds of theism. It can be defined by the idea that humanity is great because of it's transcendental quality; humanity is created/has been born as the saviors/sole purpose of the universe. A common example is Stranger in a Strange Land, in which humanity is revealed able to rise to the level of martians in their own way, without being destroyed as unfeasible or assimilated. Other examples include Doris Lessing in all works, but especially Shikasta, and E.E. "Doc" Smith in the Lensmen series. In real world this is advocated mainly by magical societies from freemasons to wicca. Mage: the Ascension is obviously strongly influenced.

Now, both of the above can live side by side quite easily, and if humanism is what rocks your boat (as it frequently does mine), go ahead and include both. Next, some common examples of stylistic techniques used in literature:

Shock effects: take a look at the works of Robert A. Heinlein; observe how he strips common assumptions by putting his protagonists up to irreligiousness, promiscuity, pedofilia and incest. Other writers include homosexuality and other vices to taste. By confronting common assumptions based on theist morals the writers jog the reader out of his "safe" frame of reference. The protagonist doing the things above is without fault a hero and irreducably human. What is left for the reader: either deny everything good the hero has done, or accept his basic humanity as the basis of all possible value systems. I'll break form and mention Rabelais here.

Heroism: Conan stories are humanist. They celebrate the achievements of a man who rises above others because of his natural virtue, not stemming from anything but his pure human nature. Likewise the early Dragonlance books; Raistlin is a hero of humanism, achieving impossible feats of will just because. Both are cases of demonstrating human possibility to triumph over all comers, and thus elevate them in spirit above the gods.

Transcendental climax: This is mainly common in the mystic variety of humanistic literature. It's also used by all kinds of theists. A transcendental climax is when a hero finds untapped potential within himself at the nick of time. The Claremont X-Men in the Phoenix storyline, as well as Harry Potter and any third grade fantasy literature are chock full of the theist variety. The humanist one is successfully depicted in LotR in various places, for example.

Psychologising evil: There is no evil as a transcendental idea, only as unwanted properties. Note how Tolkien (a very humanistic writer), Orwell, Asimov and most of the others persist in giving us perspective on their villains? The stories are about genuine philosophical differences or human frailties, not about good or evil in any prescribed moral sense.

Human possibility: This is the other side of the heroism coin; while you can elevate human through a single protagonist, it's usually more efficient if you can elevate whole nations and ways of life. The strongest humanist wibe comes from literature that demonstrates alternative ways of life, or utopias, to say it simply. Humanism in literature is about demonstrating (as is all literature in relation to philosophy) the possibilities of human. Examples of this in the genre medium chosen here are many works of Norman Spinrad (Russian Spring springs to mind) and Elfquest. Ayn Rand is a clear mainstream example.

There are more of these, but I don't know if it's entirely appropriate for me to hock the forum for literary analysis of American genre classics. Others can easily fill in what I've left out, if appropriate. And in any case, such "tricks of the trade" are not all you need.

Anyway, just plug the above and any other features you find in your own research into your material, and soon the game is brimming with resonances that almost anybody will interpret as humanist. We have a common cultural background, and certain kinds of themes will invariably mean the same things to us all.

I've picked my examples solely from American fiction, as readers here are rarely familiar with other bodies of work. As I'm a little rusty with my American classics (not to speak of mainstream, ugh), I've gone exclusively with genre literature. Someone else can probably point out the English/American classics that deal with humanism.

A couple of words about pure "style" as understood by writers. As I see it, you have a couple of ways to invoke humanist tradition in your text. You can either go for the hippie wibe (like Doris Lessing) or the unadorned straight prose common in American literature. It's unnecessary at this stage to try to creep on the issue like Tolkien does. So I suggest straight psychological exposition, historical archs made clear early and succintly, plain language spiced with low-key stylings and thinly veiled philosophy. The Lessing thing would be a little foggier, with lots of narrow character perspectives. You probably won't want that, especially as it requires more technique.

[Tobias]

In fairness to all, I think I drifted the thread - and it's goal wasn't superclear either in post 1...

But recapping is of less use than going forward, so let me go forward.

Mike - At least, the thread's giving me a better insight into color, mood, and style - both from the definition angle, as from the design angle. My use of 'fantasy heartbreaker' might've been unfortunate. I meant that comment in a light-hearted way - as the mandatory fantasy system that everyone should get out of their system. My personal preferences on fantasy (which will come out in YGAD) tend to a more concealed, dreamt-of fairy-like world than the hardcore D&D 'pick a race and pick a class' aspect. Let me get back to YGAD setting after I reply to Eero:

Eero - That was absolutely a grade-A reply, from where I'm sitting. From that post I'm able to get a lot of useful hints for both YGAD and the more general purpose of designing games with exploration of humanism. A lot of the pointers you give are things I've heard of, thank goodness, but it's very good to have them applied to this current issue. For the remainer of this post (and this thread?), I'll focus on what these things mean to me and YGAD. But know that I'll keep this post for futher design influences on the general issue.

On the humanism issue I'm in the techno-optimistic camp myself (only because I'm too much of a scientific critic to immerse myself in the mysticism camp without reservations. I am investigating the apparently mystical side of humans as well, of course. ;) ). And after that, I'm not a shiny-bright-eyed-technology-will-make-it-all-beter techno-optimist. I think there are possibilities there, but humankind's going to need a lot of social changes first...

I don't mean to turn this into an expose of my person (PMs will do for that), but I mention this because it is my 'natural' style of presenting the issues present in (my) being a humanist. This directly influences my design style. In YGAD, I will not preach one of the extremes, but present several different communities/countries where several different variants of techno-optimism and mysticism will be present. Experimental forms of dealing with the new situation.

YGAD is a fantasy game with humanist issues... like The Foundation/Traveller is sci-fi with humanist issues. (In fact, there certainly are parallels.... in them, the Empire collapses and falls away, leaving stranded communities to work things out for themselves.) I don't want to 'scare' players into heavy philosophy - but basic concerns should be clear to them. I will probably have a more up-front "dealing with the issues" stance in later humanist game efforts. It's likely those will be more Narrative in style.

And basic concerns WILL be more effectively transmitted by a recognizable style, as Eero writes - and gives some good tips for (that the lord I recognize a bunch which are on the shelf at home - so I can have a look right away).

I had never really looked at schock effect in the works of Heinlein in that way... interesting... (it may (not) help that I read most of that stuff over 10 years ago)... I should look at it again. No problem having some shocking or psycholo-/philoso-villainous NPC walking around. Just focusing on their Value, Goal, and philosophy (without using jargon-laden terms in descriptions) will help a great deal.

So, to return to setting/color/mood/theme/style of YGAD (I'm purposefully lumping them to make it clear I don't want a dictionary definition argument about what's coming):

In YGAD the gods have died, and Rain Day (when their fragments rained down) has happened. Let me make it clear: the gods existed, and people knew it. You(r priest) could pray for a miracle, and it would sometimes happen (somewhat reliably, like early technology). The gods didn't manifest, or walk around with avatars, or drive flaming chariots around the sky, but those connecting to them could feel deep emotions or a kind of 'flow' (check out Csikszentmihaly for the flow I mean, if interested). So there was a sense of them, causality. As manifestations of certain (platonic?) ideals they mostly had the best interests of humankind at heart (just like people, generally) - and had tweaked a few paramaters of humankind - the most noticable one a lessened urge for lethal competition and a lowering of birth rate.

(Note: 'Evil' gods thus become an interesting thing to explore. (Dysfunctional Gods?) As well as communities which revel with abondon in the fact that their more primal natures (reptile brain) have been set free.)

Now, I had intended for a degree of social collapse following Rain Day, but didn't want to make it too heavy. Given the example of Foundation (and Traveller) though, and to make the collision between different interpretations of how to use the new-found freedom and power more clear, I think I'll have to increase the size of the wrench I toss into the works. More devastation. More severing of communications. Without going wholly apocalyptic.

There will be communities which are convinced that the gods were just (benignly parasitic?) expressions of a mystical quality inherent in humans anyway (both as suggested on these boards before, as well as influenced by my own experiences with Mage). These will strive for employing that mystical nature. There will be techop communities. There will be tyrant-driven communities.

And there will be fantasy. Hidden-behind-the-curtain fantsay. Phantoms out of the human mind fantasy. Dreams. And one cursed, strong dwarf, wandering the lands, with his beard of ever-shifting color and length. ;)

Now, in Foundation and in Traveller, I personally found the exploration of the humanist issues a bit too heavily-imposed for the mood I want in YGAD. So I'll have to be more subtle, then. Show more exponents/proponents of certain viewpoints/society lifestyles WITHOUT using the philosophical labels. Make it recognizable without pushing people's noses right into it. Maybe this requires more technique, like the Lessing style would do, but with YGAD I'm not looking for philosophical completeness. I just hope I'm up to the challenge.

[edit: spelling]