To the System Rulers

[Paganini]

You know, I really like the new layout of the forums, but it didn't address the one beef I've had with the UI ever since I've been here. (All of a week or two. :)

The way that messages are marked read is really annoying. They're not marked read after you *read* them, they're all marked read after you leave. I would really like the option to have the option of marking messages read manually. There are a lot of great posts here, and I can't always read / answer them in one sitting. And then, if I make a mistake (like closing my browser by accident... :) I have no idea what threads have new posts.

I dunno if this can be done with PHP or whatever, but it would sure be cool if it could.

[Mike Holmes]

I agree that it is problematic. Often I'll find posts that I have not read that are not listed as being "new since the last login", but are. If something were to be improved, that would be my first priority. Given that I read 95% of the posts.

Mike

[Clinton R. Nixon]

It's times like these that I wonder why I put myself through this, honestly.

You can mark posts read manually - although it's a matter of marking all posts in a forum or in the entire forums. You should see the option to mark all posts read on the right hand side of your screen, right above the list of topics when looking at a forum.

Messages are marked read after you read them. I'm not certain what you're talking about - if I read one thread in Indie Game Design, and two other threads have new messages, and I leave the forum and come back, those two threads still have new messages listed.

Sometimes, I'll hit back when using the forums and think, "Why isn't that topic listed at read?" Then I remember I hit back, and the page is in my browser's cache. If I hit reload, everything's alright.

Lastly - I didn't code these forums. I don't plan to. I appreciate the input, but I'm using these as written. The posts read function is a great, great deal better than in the last version, and that's something to be happy about.

[Paganini]

You can mark posts read manually - although it's a matter of marking all posts in a forum or in the entire forums. You should see the option to mark all posts read on the right hand side of your screen, right above the list of topics when looking at a forum.

Actually, I don't have anything like that. I just went and checked. I have:

View posts since last visit
View your posts
View unanswered posts

And that's all.

But the real problem isn't posts not getting marked read, it's with the *automatic* marking of posts when I leave. If I leave some posts unread, they're marked as read the next time I visit. In fact, the forum doesn't seem to track "read" or "unread" status of posts; it tracks by timestamp. Messages posted since my last recorded login are a different color. (Hence, "view posts since last visit.) If there was a post made before my last login that I didn't read, then I'm out of luck.

[Clinton R. Nixon]

Actually, I don't have anything like that. I just went and checked. I have:

View posts since last visit
View your posts
View unanswered posts

And that's all.

Cough. Hm. I said, "in a forum." That is, in Indie Game Design, or in Site Discussion, or in wherever. When you're looking at the main screen for the forums - in the plural - it's at the bottom of the list of forums on the left.

But the real problem isn't posts not getting marked read, it's with the *automatic* marking of posts when I leave. If I leave some posts unread, they're marked as read the next time I visit. In fact, the forum doesn't seem to track "read" or "unread" status of posts; it tracks by timestamp. Messages posted since my last recorded login are a different color. (Hence, "view posts since last visit.) If there was a post made before my last login that I didn't read, then I'm out of luck.

It can only tell what threads you've read. It doesn't mark a thread you haven't clicked on as read. (And before you tell me it does - I do not have a magic computer. It works the same as yours.) If you've clicked a thread, and don't read the entire thing, well, it's going to be marked as read. Read the whole thread, or remember where you left off.

I'm sorry if you think I'm being belligerant. You're asking me to make the forums read your mind. Trust me, you and everyone else would complain if I made you manually mark each post you've read. (I've never seen a forum that works that way, and with good reason.) Of course, someone's going to have a problem no matter how the forums work.

I read each and every post on here every day. I don't have a single problem doing so. I'm of average intelligence, with a completely normal computer. Given all that, I have a hard time understanding the problem.

[Logan]

Clinton is being polite. I think you're picking at the fine points. No software is perfect. So, when the forum software loses your posts or deletes what you've typed (and the earliest incarnation of this forum did that all the time), then it's time to say something. Otherwise, why not just enjoy the many good things about these forums?

[Paganini]

Cough. Hm. I said, "in a forum." That is, in Indie Game Design, or in Site Discussion, or in wherever. When you're looking at the main screen for the forums - in the plural - it's at the bottom of the list of forums on the left.

Duh. Sorry, my bad.

Either way, that wasn't really what was bothering me. :)

I'm sorry if you think I'm being belligerant. You're asking me to make the forums read your mind. Trust me, you and everyone else would complain if I made you manually mark each post you've read. (I've never seen a forum that works that way, and with good reason.) Of course, someone's going to have a problem no matter how the forums work.

Nono, you misunderstand. You're not offensive, and I know you work hard at this. Believe it or not, I know other sysops, and I know what they go through. (As matter of fact, my aunt is the administrator for Barnes / Jewish Hospital in Stl. Louis.)

And I'm not saying that you should make anyone do anything. I'd just like the option to mark each post read manually. A lot of places have some sort of feature like this. I was thinking of a setting in the User Profile, like "disable automatic marking of messages as read."

I read each and every post on here every day. I don't have a single problem doing so. I'm of average intelligence, with a completely normal computer. Given all that, I have a hard time understanding the problem.

Well, I dunno. Questions of magic computers aside, it seems that I'm not the only one who comes back to a forum devod of (apparently new) posts if I get disconnected. This morning the power went out. When I came back all the threads were marked as read, not just the one that I had had up at the time.

[Clinton R. Nixon]

I'll - well, work on it. Like I said, I'm not particularly planning on re-coding these forums. I've got the knowledge to, but I'd rather do something creative instead. (In addition - all edits I make have to be really carefully documented - everytime I upgrade the forum, all my changes are wiped out.)

To everyone: if you have a suggestion for the forums, I'd prefer it if you private messaged me. If you have what appears to be a problem, feel free to put it here or private message me, but I won't be able to help you if you don't provide, at a minimum, the browser you're using, and the operating system it runs on.

[Paganini]

To everyone: if you have a suggestion for the forums, I'd prefer it if you private messaged me. If you have what appears to be a problem, feel free to put it here or private message me, but I won't be able to help you if you don't provide, at a minimum, the browser you're using, and the operating system it runs on.

Noted for future reference. :)

[greyorm]

Clinton is being polite. I think you're picking at the fine points. No software is perfect. So, when the forum software loses your posts or deletes what you've typed (and the earliest incarnation of this forum did that all the time), then it's time to say something. Otherwise, why not just enjoy the many good things about these forums?

I'm not sure how to say this without coming across as confrontational, though that isn't my intent, so I'll just say it -- further, this is all I'll say publically in order to provide a counter-voice, everything else will be and should be dealt with privately -- : I found it anything but polite.

Now, onto something else: I'm not certain what you are getting at, but your statements seem to indicate that you believe that if there's a feature a user would like to see added they should just keep their mouth shut instead?

I don't know about anyone else, but I don't believe that's the way a user-driven forum should run.  Sure, if this were a private playground, then fine...but it isn't.

Obviously the problem with posts/threads being marked read that haven't been read causes difficulty for some users, and I'm not sure why you think they should just suck it up and live with it?

As well, just because a request or alteration is voiced/proposed doesn't mean it has to be implemented, so why do you frown upon the possibility of user requests? (with the understanding that you aren't the admin; I ask as I want to see what the reasoning for your statement is)

[Logan]

My reasoning is very simple:

This site is provided as a free service. Compared to other sites I've seen with similar arrangements, this one is well-run and Clinton is generous about adding features and trying to keep people happy.

It's one thing to make a simple request. It's another to say that a minor dysfunction is a "major problem." This request is not a "major problem." Losing posts is a "major problem." This request is a, "Clinton, the site is doing thus and such. Is there anything you can do about it?" Clinton already answered. As for his politeness or lack of same, well, we were typing at the same time. Anyway, he didn't tell anyone to get stuffed, so I reckon he was polite. Don't you?

Oh, one other thing... This place *is* a private playground. Specifically, it's Clinton's private playground. He shares it with all of us, which is nice of him. Until we all start paying for subscriptions, we are here as his guests. I think many of us forget that from time to time.

[Ron Edwards]

Hey,

I think everyone has said his piece on this thread, and I'd like to call it before anyone feels the need to repeat said piece.

A protocol for forum-concerns might be a good idea, in writing. That is, if X is not working, who to contact and how, that sort of thing. If we do that, it will happen later, not immediately.

Best,
Ron

[greyorm]

Eye of the beholder: What's "minor" to one individual could well be "major" to someone else.

Further, this doesn't really answer as to the reasoning for your statements along the lines of folks without "major" problems just keeping quiet and enjoying everything else.
Though perhaps you meant to respond to that part with the "provided as free," in which case please see further below.

I don't think the request was so off-the-wall, however, to be considered in bad taste or intent.

Anyway, he didn't tell anyone to get stuffed, so I reckon he was polite. Don't you?

One can be impolite without telling someone to "get stuffed."  In fact, I was just nailed on this very issue by Clinton in a recent thread, wherein I posted a harsh comment about the font sizes...I did not tell anyone to get stuffed, but my statement was none-the-less not polite, it was impolite and insensitive.

So, no, I don't reckon.

I can bring other examples of polite and impolite behavior to bear that don't include outright insults, verbal attacks, foul language and so forth, if necessary, but I hope the point is made: politeness is more than avoiding outright personal attacks.
Enough on that issue here, however.  Further debate on the subject of politeness should be removed to private mail.

Oh, one other thing... This place *is* a private playground. Specifically, it's Clinton's private playground. He shares it with all of us, which is nice of him. Until we all start paying for subscriptions, we are here as his guests. I think many of us forget that from time to time.

This is purportedly a user-based community...in real communities the mayor is not the community, the police officers are not the community, the judge is not the community.  The community controls all of these individuals, and without a community, these individuals become completely unimportant.

The community is not there at the whim of the mayor or law-enforcement, they are not guests who are tolerated by the whim of another individual, they are the very reason for the existance of the community.

I consider this site OURS --that is, the USERS (and yes, that includes the admins).  I believe, though I don't presume to speak for him, that Ron (the other admin) believes the same.  Without the users, this would be an empty ghost-town of a site.  It truly would be a private playground.

That is, the Forge is a democracy, not a dictatorship, at least that is what I have been led to believe (and I've been here since before the forums were even active...I do not believe I have not been misled all this time).

An admin in this situation does not OWN, they CONTRIBUTE -- via their own unique talents, skills and time -- just as everyone else contributes with theirs.
Perhaps that has been forgotten as well.

If I am wrong, and this is a private -- not public -- playground, then I will be sorely disappointed; but I don't believe I will be.

Does Clinton put a great deal of work and sweat into this site?  Yes.  Should he be applauded and respected for that?  You better believe it.
Is he any more important than Mike Holmes, Fang Langford, Paul Czege, Jared Sorenson or anyone else, including you or I?  Not in the least.

Clinton does service for the Forge, no more.  An important service.  So does everyone else who posts here.  WE are the Forge, not any one particular individual or set of individuals...without everyone, equal, there would be no Forge.

[greyorm]

I think everyone has said his piece on this thread, and I'd like to call it before anyone feels the need to repeat said piece.

Sorry, posted that last bit as you posted this.  I'm done over here; Logan, please reply to me by PM if you feel the need, I'll do the same.

[Logan]

Raven,

Let us agree to disagree - and move on.