Can my job (cover) save my soul....?

[TickTock Man]

Greetings!

I will begin this post with a quick charcater sketch, and then go forward with the question.

The character is Dr. Victor Tull, a noted and talented surgeon.  Dr. Tull sees life and death on his table evry day, and many doctors make with peace with the grim face of death after some time.  Not Dr. Tull.  he has seen the face of the void and run screaming from it.  And he is not alone.  A small group of various gifted physicians, those "in the know" in the top echelon of medicine, are part of an elite (and some ancient) cabal of sorcerer's known as "Caduceus".  These physician sorcerers have made pacts with demons to get the power needed to advance their careers, garner fame and acclaim, and most of all to find the secret of immortality.  The demons slowly push the physicians of Caduceus closer to the edge, all the while providing hints and vague references to mighty necromantic secrets.  As the physicians agree to do darker and darker deeds, and fulfil the needs of their so-called servants, their humanity and sanity are in greater peril as each week passes....

But- these are still talented physicians.  Surgeons, pharmacists, researchers and more, these people are in the business of saving lives, and they bring comfort and relief to patients every day.  Can this fact alone keep their humanity from dwindling to nothing?

The very word Cover implies that once a demon is summoned and bound, they are now a Sorcerer first and foremost.  The rest of the person's life is really secondary to that end.  Does this devalue their acts of good?  Is it really an act of good when a Sorcerer does things to "build their Humanity" so they can embark on some dark excercise really count as good?  Or is it enough that the act is objectively good and helpful, and that it moves the person soul a bit towards the Good by the act itself?  Is a real change of heart necessary for a good act to buld the Sorcerer's own Humanity, even if they fall to the temptation of power once again?  

I think these are probably questions that msut be answered by each group of player.  We know Humanity can be raised, and how to raise Humanity mechanically, but what decisions have you made regarding this?

Thanks for your time!

-Angelo

[WiredNavi]

I admit to little understanding of Sorcerer, save for what I've picked up here at the Forge.  However, it sounds like you're confusing _what_ a character does with _why_ they do it.

If they're exercising their great skill to make life better for those whom they can help, to ease the pain and anguish of the suffering, or to uphold the cause of life against calamity, (and if your definition of Humanity is something like 'empathy and caring for your fellow man), then yes, it ought to help.  If they're doing it because they enjoy having the power of life and death, because they want to rise to the challenge and prove how amazing they are, because they want the prestige and money, or because they want to build up good karma for when they do their necromantic rituals, then no.

It seems to me that each time the doctor steps up to the operating table, he has the opportunity to redeem or damn himself.  The whole idea of the system seems to be to judge the intentions, rather than the substance, of the character's actions against the definition of Humanity.  If someone tried desperately to jump in front of a bullet, I'd say they should get that Humanity bonus check even if they don't manage to save the person it was aimed at - the point is that they tried to help someone else at their own expense, not whether the act itself was successful or laudable.

[TickTock Man]

Thanks for the reply.  I am not sure that I am confusing the "what" and the "why" of the character, in fact that is basis for the whole question, which you answered very well.  I personally agree with you.  Motivation is the crux of Humanity checks, and to award a bonus check I would require a roleplay through an intense operating table procedure, complete with demonic whisperings and paranoia.  But is interesting that a Cover of Doctor can provide an opportunity to give a check on a daily basis, while a cover of Office Worker would be much less likely to.

I wonder if anyone thinks it is enough that a person chooses a Cover that has good as a byproduct of the very acts that make up the Cover.  I read a book by an economist philosopher, and he claimed that Bill Gates should be a saint as much as Mother Theresa.  Religion aside, this man claimed that objectively, Gates helps 1000's of people every day by employing them and giving them a livelihood, and helps millions through the provision of technology.  He contributes a billion dollars a year to charity.  He also claimed Mother Theresa could help maybe 100 people a day in a tangible way, and that is pushing it.  Gates helps many more people from an objective perspective, even if his motiviation is personal fortune.  Therefore he is at least as good as Theresa, and more helpful to the world, so Gates should sleep in peace at night.

I disagree with the philosopher, but I thought it was interesting enough to mention in the framework of Sorcerer.

[Alan]

But- these are still talented physicians.  Surgeons, pharmacists, researchers and more, these people are in the business of saving lives, and they bring comfort and relief to patients every day.  Can this fact alone keep their humanity from dwindling to nothing?

That is a question that can only be answered in play.  Humanity does not fluctuate based on day to day activities, but on in-play choices.  And my interpretation (since Ron likes demonstrable behavior in general) is that Humanity gain or loss checks are only triggered by _acts_ not by the intent of the act.  

Also, if an act is routine, I would suggest it does not deserve a Humanity check.  If your doctor is routinely saving lives, he doesn't get Humanity gain checks for each operation.  

Routine doesn't get Humanity checks; only dramatic choice gets Humanity checks.

[WiredNavi]

But is interesting that a Cover of Doctor can provide an opportunity to give a check on a daily basis, while a cover of Office Worker would be much less likely to.

Hmm.  Interesting.  In that case, though, I would say that anytime the character was making some major decision about becoming or being a doctor (especially a decision which involved hardship on his/her part) then they'd probably be allowed a check - for instance, a medical student might get a Humanity check for throwing herself wholeheartedly into her studies and staying up days at a time because she is driven on by the hope that someday she'll be able to help her fellow man.  But if you're doing the expected, even if it's good, then I've got to agree with TickTock.  The point would seem to be that it's making and following through on a significant choice which engenders a Humanity check: choosing to give up all the other fun things one could be doing to be a better doctor, choosing to, choosing to keep working on that patient even when the other doctors don't think they have a chance because you refuse to give up hope, etc.

That is a question that can only be answered in play. Humanity does not fluctuate based on day to day activities, but on in-play choices. And my interpretation (since Ron likes demonstrable behavior in general) is that Humanity gain or loss checks are only triggered by _acts_ not by the intent of the act.

Hmm.  Are you saying that an act without the intent is enough?  As I see it, in order to raise Humanity (or really, for that matter, lower it) you have to follow through (i.e. act on) a motive which is in accordance with the definition of humanity.  Either one, without the other, isn't enough; a motive with no action is a sign that someone isn't committed to that motive, and an action without significant motive is a sign that someone isn't concerned.

I suppose that you could say that realizing after you took an action that it really helped people in a significant way might be enough to raise Humanity.  I can possibly make a case for a situation with, say, a bum that you carelessly gave a $20 bill to a few sessions ago coming up to you and saying, "I just wanted to tell you, that money you gave me totally changed my life...   I got a decent set of clothes, that got me a job, I'm off the street - and I owe it all to you!"  I imagine that that kind of experience could, at the right time and to the right person, make almost a retroactive motive for that action - "Hey," the Sorcerer thinks, "that thing that I did carelessly really did some good!  And I feel good about it!  It's not as hard to help people and be a decent person as I thought; maybe I can be a better person than I thought I could!".

But that's easily debateable.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

All of this talk about motives and intent is off-base. And talking about actions without intent/motives is still off-base. If "X" is irrelevant, that doesn't mean that "not-X" is what is desired.

I'm moving fast here, so stick with me. The characters are fictional. Humanity checks and Humanity gain rolls are about the characters, but they are not actually generated by the characters - but by you and the people you're playing with.

This "doctor" is not an example. Why? Because it's not arising from play. Every one of us has to project our group and ourselves as a role-player into that word. That means we are all talking about something different.

Humanity is not a process or phenomenon out here in the real world. It is a device to help us, the real people, generate fiction. To understand that device, do not start grabbing around at examples of real people or real issues. I can just see someone posting in the next few minutes about how "well, not all doctors are ethical" or some such, and then I'll have to start swearing at everyone.

Angelo rightly brought up all of this in the context of proposed play. And I will say this: any character action, Cover-oriented or not, which accords with Humanity gain in the shared aesthetic goals of the group of people playing, generates a Humanity gain roll.

That's it. That's all there is to it. (1) You have to be playing. (2) There has to be a concrete character action, during play. (3) It has to confirm and strengthen the group's sense of what constitutes Humanity gain.

The Cover-oriented question can be dealt with as subsets of that.

1. Can one get a Humanity gain roll during the practice of one's Cover? The answer is yes.

2. Are there routine actions of any kind (Cover included) which give Humanity gain rolls? The answer is no.

As long as you understand the difference between #1 and #2, you're all set.

Best,
Ron

[WiredNavi]

Angelo rightly brought up all of this in the context of proposed play. And I will say this: any character action, Cover-oriented or not, which accords with Humanity gain in the shared aesthetic goals of the group of people playing, generates a Humanity gain roll.

Aha.  I gotcha.  I was phrasing and thinking about the question in a very Simulationist way, which is not appropriate for the system.  Thanks.