(Tragedy) A tragic core mechanic

[Tanz Debil]

Hi all. First post and all that. I would be grateful if you would help me with a few questions that I have.

I've been thinking about themes I have noticed in a lot of narrativist RPGs. Primarily, I have been thinking about sacrifice. I want to create a game in which players are encouraged to really destroy their characters. I am not talking about orc-slaying ennui or undead angst but real tragedy in the classical sense, with PCs beginning a downward spiral that steepens as play goes on.

I want a narrativist game with a bit of gamist encouragement. The idea is that each PC has a goal ('End') that is in conflict with other aspects of the character's life. End has a score into which all of a character's currency (in the sense that I understand Ron to mean it) may be converted. A high End score makes a charachter more powerful (in the form of bonus dice, at least when pursuing that End) and, ultimately, capable of achieving the End (there will be some sort of minumum End score requirement). However, in order to increase End a player must sacrifice, and roleplay the sacrifice, of other aspects of the character. Players 'win' by making their characters achieve their Ends and lose all of their other currency.

A character sheet might show:
1 End
3 Means (originally 'Aesthetics')- Style, belief system, whatever, so long as it has impact on the way the character is played. Things like 'loyal', 'in love', 'deathwish', etc.
3 Paths (lifepaths)
5 Connections (friends, family, coworkers)
Possibly some other stuff

All of these other things can be converted into End, with the 'value' of each thing being either written in the rules or asigned by the GM, possibly during character creation.

So, to the questions:
(1) Has something like this been done before? If so, where can I find it? I don't want to reinvent the wheel.
(2) Will this system achieve suitably tragic and interesting games?
(3) To what extent should potential conflict be built into (or prohibited in) character creation?

[clehrich]

Gosh, that's a good idea.  I've been fiddling in my own head with things like classical tragedy and Nar, and I'm sort of knocked silly to see someone actually doing it concretely.  Cool!

Let me just check here.  When you say "classical tragedy," you mean stuff like Sophocles and Aeschylus, right?  If not, I'm sort of lost, but I think that's what you mean.  So "End" is sort of like what Fate has in store for you, and so on.

My only real problem with what you've proposed is what you call the Gamist "encouragement."  I take it you mean that one "wins", as a player, by producing tragedy, in essence.  I'm not sure that this is going to work, though it's an interesting idea.

What I like here is the basic premise: your End is determined, but your character will struggle against it.  And the more he struggles, the more that End will be bitter and agonizing.  Kinky!

Seems to me what's missing here is not a Gamism, Step On Up thing.  What's missing is the Chorus, giving running commentary: "He's doomed, he's just trying to dodge fate, oh woe!"

I can see two valuable steps toward this.

First, you need an in-game statement of Fate.  In classical tragedy, this is often prophecy.  It's something the GM should probably generate based on the player's stated End.  Basically it says, "The gods say that this will happen to you," but says it so ambiguously that the character can pretend it doesn't mean what the players (audience) know it really means.  That gives the player leverage to have his character go and fight against fate and pretend that he's really doing just what the gods want.  For example, Agamemnon's sacrifice of Iphegenia.

Second, you need some way to have other players be the chorus.  They need some means to comment on events and explain how they don't actually dodge fate, but actually prove that the character is doomed.  I think you could steal the Confessional from InSpectres for this, but in a very serious vein.  Basically what you need is for players to interpret what is happening to others' characters in terms of the long-term End.  This provides general guidance to the GM and the protagonist-player of the moment, saying, "You must take things in this direction, and here are the implications."

That might allow the protagonist-player to let loose, let his hair down, and generally fight fate and chew up scenery.  The result, if all goes well, would be that there is no escape, and that every attempt at it is self-delusion and agony, until finally the last nail goes into that coffin and the protagonist-of-the-moment sees that he has in fact killed his father and married his mother.

Hamming it up is going to be a recurrent problem.  Any ideas about how to avoid it?

[Andrew Martin]

Welcome to the Forge, Tanz Debil.

Has something like this been done before?

WYRD seems to be similar, I believe. It's here: http://www.actionroll.com/gildedmoose/pdfs/wyrd.pdf

[Tanz Debil]

Thanks for the replies.

Chris, you make some good suggestions, but I'm going to need a while to digest them (and WYRD, thanks, Andew) before I can respond at length.

Regards,

Luke

[Kirk Mitchell]

Hey Tanz. This is an idea that I have been aiming for in an offhand way in my RPG Onieros (emphasis on offhand). It focuses around characters having "triggers" where they are given complete narrative power but further their character's doom. Also, I think that the Mutants and Masterminds addon Argonauts (I think that is what it is called) focusses around the ancient Greek heroes and their tragic ends. You can find my game at:

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/NightWorldRPG/

(you are going to have to sign up because I can't figure out how to allow non-members to view files :P)

And you can find a very interesting overview on Argonauts in the e-zine Daedelus here:

http://www.chimera.info/daedalus/articles/fall2003/argonauts_preview.html

However, let me state right here that I don't mean to bust your bubble. Both Onieros and Argonauts are very fixed when it comes to setting and they both have very different ways of treating tragedy. (I have drawn a bit from Argonauts with Onieros but hopefully it isn't too derivative ;) ) Also, with Onieros, I tend to break away from classical tragedy in that I allow there to be hope at the end, that characters CAN be redeemed.

I think that a system that allows for all kinds of tragedy from ancient Greek style to Shakespeare even to Death of a Salesman would be fantastic and an incredible narrativist roleplaying experience. I look forwards to seeing what you come up with. However, just let me say that like Argonauts and my as yet unfinished Onieros, a game focussing around tragedy may end up being very much a niche game. People don't always like to be surrounded by darkness, downward spirals and tragedies. That being said, Shakespeare is (arguably) known best for his tragedies.

Luck,
Kirk.