How do you feel about formulas in games?

[Cmonkey]

Something like so:

(1x + 2y + 3z)/5

Although I've presented it in an algebra-like fashion here, the letters would be real numbers in practice, possibly an attribute level or something.  So to re-present the previous formula using a few GURPS terms (Let's call this a theoretical "Physical" attribute):

(1ST + 2DX + 3HT)/5

What I need to know is, does that sort of multi-step math scare the carp out of you?  Would use of these sorts of formulas limit the game's audience to those who have completed college courses?

[sirogit]

I believe its a definate turn-off for most people. Would you able to get people to play it? Probably.

I think there's alot of work arounds possible with creative dice systems for complex algebra.

For example, if what you want is to generate in play a number that relies strongly on Health, less so on Dex, and least of Strength, then you could make a system where people roll a d12 on their most relevant attribuite, a d8 on their moderate relevant attribuite, and a d4 on their least relevant attribuite, and add the numbers up.

[Halzebier]

Personally, I have no problems with such formulas per se, but I have two quick comments:

# It should be possible to calculate the formula before the game starts, e.g. at character creation. However, you should also look at instances which require recalculation on the fly, e.g. spells which boost attributes. Either avoid such instances or make sure that boosts or penalties only occur in increments which are easy to recalculate on the fly.

# Systems with complex formulas invite optimization (also derogatively known as min-maxing). This can be an interesting sub-game, but may or may not be what you want.

Regards,

Hal

[Mark Johnson]

This question probably is more of a RPG THEORY topic than an Indie Game Design topic unless you want to talk about the use of formulas in the game that you are actually designing.

And yes, it is a definite turnoff to probably many gamers.  And it definitely limits your appeal to non-gamers.  Some gamers may slog through it if the rest of your game appeals to them.  And of course you have that 2% of gamers who will probably complain that you need to actually use calculus to realistically model your physical attribute.

For example, I do recall a space battle game that required the applied use of 3d trigonometry for its space battles.  It has quite a small, but loyal cult following who love its realism.  Does anyone recall the name of this game?  Personally, I would prefer to play a video game in this case.

Tell us about your game and let's see if this algebra is appropriate or better yet there is someway to seamlessly integrate the algebra into the character creation in such away that it is invisible to the player but still performs whatever balance or realism function that you want it to do.

[kwill]

hi mark,

you're thinking of the wargame Attack Vector: Tactical from Ad Astra Games (cool pics with tilting blocks and everything if you follow the link)

Cmonkey,

as mentioned, outside of the context of an actual game, it is hard to say, although Halzebier makes some good points

I recently completed a MLWM campaign where

- Formulae determine dice pool size with a simple A+B vs C+D
- you need to check for triggers by seeing if A+B > C[/list:u]...and I had players complaining about *that*, imo only because
- I didn't always have a separate Formulae sheet available for the players (my bad)
- they didn't actually want to worry about it (hmph)[/list:u]it's really a matter of how much sense the calculations make in the context of the game (the real game for the real players), and then it's a matter of ease-of-learning and ease-of-use (where something may be more difficult to learn, but worth it in the long run ito ease-of-use)

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Cmonkey, is this for an actual game under construction? Or is it an abstract point? This is a moderator question, because it will affect which forum this thread is going to end up in.

How often do you anticipate actually using the formula during play? Imagine a group of five people, playing, and let's consider one session that lasts three hours. Do they run the formula once per person? Ten times per person? Thirty times per person?

Best,
Ron

[daMoose_Neo]

I was kind of pondering the same question myself, but I realized it was necceassary for some things I wanted to do and could be done very easily~

Where I want to use it is an RP of monster battling. After tearing apart the formula in several of the video games and looking at how all the different monsters were balanced against each other I realized some situations REQUIRE a formula. My approach, however, is to make it very simple.
Each monster card (in place of character sheets) will contain a Formula square which has the constants layed out, all the player has to do is plug in a die roll and do a little in-the-head math.
The sole formula in the game thus far would be used a fair bit, for combat damage results, though I wager players will be using the formula enough they'll know the results of the calculation the minute they roll the dice- more or less because they've seen it enough.
Even so, its fairly simple (in my mind):

Level Bonus * (Attack Roll + Move Value)

Where it gets complex for me is factoring type bonuses, weakneses and strengths, and other conditions which will be present in the game.
I suppose though, if you kept the meat and potatoes part of the formula, the part thats used the most, simple, you can add onto it in exceptional sitations to make it more relevent to the situation.

[Cmonkey]

1. This is for a game I'm designing.  It's a universal RPG.

2. Sirogit,
I've tried various ways, including the one you suggest, but I always end up back at formulas because they are simple to use, allow greater control, and are really nothing more than the four basic mathematical skills which everyone who's been through some education has acquired.

3. These formulas are for use during character creation, any spell or other ability which would affect a level derived from the formula would be a simple addition or subtraction (+3, -1, etc.).  There is never a need to recalculate during play, as far as I have been able to tell, though I should find out if this is true or not during the upcoming playtests.

4. Min-Maxing
It's unavoidable regardless of if these formulas or used or not.  So it's a moot point, IMO.  There will always be min-maxing, that's just the nature of RPGs, and those players who choose to do it.

5. Algebra
(1ST + 2DX + 3HT)/5
If all your scores were the GURPS average of 10, this would equal 12 or (60)/5, which could also be seen as (10 + 20 + 30)/5.

While this may be the technical definition of algebra, I don't see it as such.  It's simple arithmetic to me, and I've thoroughly explained it as such in the manuscript (I've even got a "Using a Calculator" section which covers using the memory button to easily solve the formulas).

Perhaps I am too mathematically inclined a person to accurately judge how large a problem this will be, but at the moment, I can't imagine anyone who's completed 6th grade being unable to complete these formulas, at least after having read the "Solving the Formulas" section of the manuscript.

I'm nearing the alpha playtesting stage (which will be done locally in tightly controlled groups), so I thought I'd get opinions from the net before jumping into that.  It's been rather enlightening in that the only forum I've gotten a truly and overwhelmingly positive response is at Hero Games' forum.

[Brother Adso]

Formulas, I think, are fine and dandy at character creation.  In fact, because of the preciseness and balancability they provide, character creation is the perfect time to make use of a profusion of formulas.

However, be wary of employing formulas or mutually depenent dice rolls in the actual play process.  It usually slows down play at best, and at worst can degenerate into confusion and argumentation.

As to what people can and cannot solve or work with, basic algebra isn't beyond expectations for any gaming audience.  Just be careful with using multiple forumlas whose results are dependent on one another,and be extremely precise with your definitions of varaibles.

-Adso

[Mark Johnson]

Cmonkey,

Is there a need for this formula at all?  I can't really tell without seeing your game.  But will you actually need an actual overall generic Physical trait?  Why not default to use STR, DEX or HT?  (To use your Gurps example)?

Your best bet is to simply see how it does in the Alpha test.  A word of warning, game testers tend to be a self selecting sample.  In other words, the kind of group that would want to test your game is the kind of group to whom the algebra will be appealing or even a selling point.  Posting this on the Hero Games forum is an example of this.  Posting it on a Hero Wars forum might get you different results.

If you want this to be an Indie Game Design thread post your design goals, a summary of the game or a link to the game text.  

Regards,
Mark J.

P.S. Kwill... Yes, Attack Vector: Tactical was what I was thinking of!  Thanks!  I think it is great that the gaming community can contain such a diversity of play styles.

[ragnar]

Personally I have a problems with complex formulas in systems, even though I usually have no problem calculating the result. I think it's best to use mainly + and -, as those are the easiest to calculate in your head, then multiplications and finally divisions. Divisions by 2 are quick and easy...but for division by 5 you'll have most people pulling out the calculator. It also depends a lot on the range of your stats, it's quicker to do 5+8 than 77+63, not to mentions 77/5.

Ragnar

[Cmonkey]

Formulas, I think, are fine and dandy at character creation.  In fact, because of the preciseness and balancability they provide, character creation is the perfect time to make use of a profusion of formulas.

My thoughts exactly.

As to what people can and cannot solve or work with, basic algebra isn't beyond expectations for any gaming audience.  Just be careful with using multiple forumlas whose results are dependent on one another,and be extremely precise with your definitions of varaibles.

All of the variables are the attribute scores.  These formulas will be used in skills & some advantages/disadvantages.

Is there a need for this formula at all?  I can't really tell without seeing your game.  But will you actually need an actual overall generic Physical trait?  Why not default to use STR, DEX or HT?  (To use your Gurps example)?

See previous text above.

If you want this to be an Indie Game Design thread post your design goals, a summary of the game or a link to the game text.

Sorry.  I didn't realize all of that was required.  I just wanted to garner opinions on the whole formula issue.

Personally I have a problems with complex formulas in systems, even though I usually have no problem calculating the result. I think it's best to use mainly + and -, as those are the easiest to calculate in your head, then multiplications and finally divisions. Divisions by 2 are quick and easy...but for division by 5 you'll have most people pulling out the calculator. It also depends a lot on the range of your stats, it's quicker to do 5+8 than 77+63, not to mentions 77/5.

I would hardly call any of the formulas used complex.  The basic formula layout is this:
(attributes)/divisor+(Optional adder or subtracter)

The "(attributes)" part is made up of a number of controlling attributes, each with a different degree of control.  For example, the original formula has ST, DX, and HT, with HT being the primary controlling attribute, DX the secondary, and ST final.  The "/divisor" part serves to get the number back under 25, to maintain small numbers.  The optional adder or subtracter is rare, and rather difficult to explain without you having a copy of the game's text, which I won't post to the web before the Alpha testing is done, and any necessary revisions are made.

My previous experience with point-based systems leads me to expect that most people will use calculators during character creation anyhow, so I'm not extremely concerned, and I actually suggest the use of calculators for any point-based system, including this one.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Cmonkey,

Thanks for letting me know - and Mark's right, this forum has some pretty specific goals, and the information he mentioned is crucial.

It's not really a good place for opinion polls. We'll critique your game, but to do that, we have to understand your goals and many of the various aesthetic features of the game itself.

So go for it - lots of people here to talk to, once that starts happening.

Best,
Ron