"reality and firearms" links

[Latigo]

Hello to all,

Questions about "reality and firearms" often surface in RPG design, and after talking to Forge member Paka recently I thought to share these links which folks might find interesting on the topic.

Below are links to some very well done articles which may give you an entirely different view of what happens when people get shot than you may currently have from media and games which make the subject seem a lot more cut and dried that it is.

These studies are law enforcement based, so some different conclusions may be drawn than had the data been military or civilian based but still a good starting point for people interested in such things.

If anything, they seem to point to the fact that so much of combat is dependent on what is happening in your mind.  The mind can temporarily override the physical injuries sustained, or on the flip side can cause you to swoon and faint from a minor scratch.

All the best,

Pete / Latigo

Handgun wounding factors and effectiveness
http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

Reality of the Street? A Practical Analysis of Offender Gunshot Wound Reaction for Law Enforcement
http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volume4/number2/article421.htm

Differential Pressure Across Diaphragm Muscle: The Mechanism Responsible for Sensations of Intense Internal Pressure and Pain Caused by Blow to "Solar Plexus"
http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volume4/number1/toc.htm

Emotional Fainting: An Involuntary Psycho-physiological Mechanism of Collapse
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs29.htm

Blunt Trauma Concussion of Spinal Cord as a Mechanism of Instantaneous Collapse Produced by Centerfire Rifle Bullet Wounds to the Torso
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs28.htm

The Myth of Energy Transfer
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs3.htm

[Mike Holmes]

Yep, all very good articles on this subject, and more to be had at the site. I, and others here, have been using these articles for years.

Actually, recently there's been a movement away from using the data in these articles. Not because they are inaccurate, or anything, but a movement to focusing a lot on the data in the famed Marshall reports from WWII. Essentially it's all about getting away from the 5% of lethality that's involved in weapon damage capacities, and getting to the 95% of it that deals with firer psychology. Which is more dramatically interesting in many cases.

Still, anyone who hasn't read these, and has an interest in firearms damage as a specific focus of their game, really needs to do so. Some important myths exposed in there.

Mike

[Latigo]

Mike - Didn't realize it was "old ground" for folks, just trying to share.

I fully agree that it is the psychology and people's reactions that are more interesting than the numbers.

Best,

Pete

[Mike Holmes]

No reason not to reapeat good info. Again, for people into the nitty gritty of guns, that site is the best.

Another consideration about this sort of info, however, that I've kinda come across recently is whether realistic is really what people want.

That is, one of the fascinating facts that I repeat from the site all the time is that there is no such thing as "stopping power." That is, because of Sir Isaac Newton, the kinetic energy delivered by a gun is no greater than that of the kick experienced by the firer. And given that the impact of a bullet tends to be inelastic (barring a bullet proof jacket, and even then to some extent), the kinetic energy imparted is small. In fact the reports conclude that most people who fall down when shot (in cases where the shot was not to one of the small lethal areas of the body), do so because they think that's what they're supposed to do.

Now, if you haven't read the site (or heard me repeat this fact), it's sorta an astonishing thing to hear - I know that it surprised me the first time that I read it.

The point is that, unless the game is meant to be educational about such things, the value of including this data in the rules is dubious. One of the reasons cited for why people think that they should fall down when shot is because they've seen people on TV get shot and fall down. Meaning that most people's expectations about what weapons do follow an unrealistic, but consistent path. So if what you're emulating is a genre from TV, movies, novels, etc, it may acutally make more sense to use unrealisitic expectations that we're all familiar with, than to use the information on a site like the one listed above.

All of which is to say, read the site; but when using it to design, handle with care.

Mike

[Lee Short]

Is anyone aware of similar research for weapons that predate firearms -- bows, knives, swords, etc?  I'm looking for both the psychological and physiological stuff here.

[Jasper]

Lee,

I've seen many people attempt to produce such material, but you're unlikely to see anything backed up by much science in the way of medieval armaments, since no one uses them today -- there's no funding, and no (very very few) test cases of people being hit with such weapons now.  You're best bet, for what is out there, is to check out //www.netsword.com and do some searching.

[Latigo]

Lee / Jasper - Well, in fact YES, at the 5th Western Martial Arts Workshop this year http://ahfi.org/wmaw2004/ there was a wonderful lecture on exactly that topic given.  Here are the details from the schedule:

Dr. Richard Swinney, The Bramble Schoole of Defence
Scott Crawford, The Bramble Schoole of Defence
The Medical Reality of Historical Wounds

What does a sword really do to a human body? How quickly are humans incapacitated or killed by penetrating trauma?

ER physician Richard Swinney and respiratory therapist Scott Crawford draw from 20+ years of experience working with emergency and critical care patients to help answer these questions. Combining primary historical sources and archaelogical evidence, they explain the origin of some common misconceptions about sword wound deaths. Numerous medical case presentations 'flesh out' the lecture with the humorous, surprising and sometimes astounding medical realities of penetrating trauma.

*******

I was busy with another class during the lecture, but my students said it was one of the highlights of the weekend for them!  They went back and forth between historical and modern medical cases of traumatic injury, complete with a Power Point presentation.

I am pretty sure the Bramble school has a web presence.  Also check out http://www.swordforum.com on the Western sword arts forum, as I believe they check in there.

Best of all,

Pete

[Latigo]

Mike - Again, I couldn't agree more about following the genre conventions.  Certainly in a John Woo movie there is an internal logic of mayhem that has nothing to do with this and must be preserved if you want to play Hong Kong Cop Shootout!

Maybe it is just my reaction to the other extreme of 80's game design that produced rules like Morrow Project, Stalking the Night Fantastic, Aftermath and their successive spawn of less detailed but equally clunky and restrictive rule sets that I love this kind of stuff for gaming.

If anything, I think it lets the GM (or players) have the extra freedom to narate results because it is not about calibre or ratios anymore.  Stuff happens that is strange.  Again in the paper yesterday I read of a point blank shot to the head that police said "bounced off the victims skull" - he was treated at the scene and released.

Best,

Pete

[Callan S.]

Lee,

I've seen many people attempt to produce such material, but you're unlikely to see anything backed up by much science in the way of medieval armaments, since no one uses them today -- there's no funding, and no (very very few) test cases of people being hit with such weapons now.  You're best bet, for what is out there, is to check out //www.netsword.com and do some searching.

One of the odd things about this, is that if no one really knows what it's like anymore...exactly why would one reach for accuracy? For who's benefit, since they aren't going to percieve the accuracy?

[contracycle]

Is anyone aware of similar research for weapons that predate firearms -- bows, knives, swords, etc?  I'm looking for both the psychological and physiological stuff here.

Not that I'm aware of, due to the absence of cultures using these weapons today.  If anything the psychological side is more accessible; the Zulu for example seem to have had a process for addressing Post Traumatic Stress Disorder for warriors returning from the field.  The would be sequestered from society for a time and given quite horrible purgatives that would assist their reintegration into society by recognising the trauma they had undergone and ritually exorcising it.  This is actually in some stark contrast to recent military practices of demobilisation which in effect just return the soldier to the civilian street.

[Mike Holmes]

Pete, is there a transcript of that lecuture somewhere? And/or somewhere where you can get the powerpoint presentation? That would rock.

I used to have a couple of friends who were in the national guard, who were full time paramedics. A lot of what I know about trauma I learned from the real life experiences of these guys.


Don't forget Phoenix Command! Hit points for the spleen! I played a lot of Aftermath back in the day - I found that the focus on armor really sorta played into the whole Road Warrior sort of thing. You never know when these things are going to click, and when they're going to fizzle.

Callan, why do the accuracy thing? Well, it's just another genre. Where Feng Shui is the Hong Kong firearms genre, Phoenix Command is the "Vietnam Medic" genre. If somebody wanted to do this with swords, it might work for an attempt to recreate some sort of historical feel for how these things were. Think of it as a "History Channel" sort of game, vs. a Sci-Fi Channel sort of game.

Not sure how much of a market exists for this sort of thing...but I watch tons of the History Channel (I love the new series where they're using the "Total War" game engine to recreate ancient battles).


Gareth, thanks for that Zulu reference. Not only is it indicative of where you can find the sort of data that the thread is about, but it's given me a cool idea for how to run certain healing contests in Hero Quest.

Mike