Kids, lisences, and RPGs

[daMoose_Neo]

Hmmkay, I'm very excited about a new prospect.
Tomorrow I'm going to be speaking with someone about giving an older property near and dear to my heart a game treatment, possibly as part of a relaunch of the old lines.
I do have some questions though, maybe this is more design, but I know some of it is marketing and publishing. I won't say what it is I'm looking at unless the conversation tomorrow goes well. But, here I go with the questions. I realize no one can tell me what to do, but I've never dealt with anything like this and some feedback might help (And Andy K, would really value your input, dealing with lisencing and all!)

1) The lisence is, to the eye, definetly a kids lisence, but beneath that surface is an unbelievable rich fantasy world with all the adventures of traditional high fantasy. Thus, what would the focus of the design/marketing be?
A) The nostolgic (anyone from the 80's would see this and go "OH YEA!")
B) The newer kids (I do believe the relaunch is still aiming at a younger audiance)
C) Gamers who aren't of the agegroup as, like I said, this is a very rich fantasy world but the 'kiddie' aspect might get in the way...but, it hasn't hurt anime
D) Appeal to all age groups

2) This is a lisence that will be recognizable. Would it befit it to use a recognizable lisence or an original system? For several reasons, I'm considering checking more into Guardians of Order's 'Magnum Opus' program and their Tri-Stat system.

3) As stated, this is a 'kids' property. What are experiances in dealing with younger RP gamers? How complex can the rules get for an average, say, 7-10+ year old? Younger?

I may have more, we'll see. I'm considering an RP or customizable card game in slightly the same vein as Twilight (as far as construction of the decks and availablity), but I need to get all the ducks in a row and make sure I can actually do this. I also need to do homework, get details on how the property going to be set up and I know Forge is a great place to get some of this ^_^

[clehrich]

My inclination about rules is to construct them in such a way that they are (1) as accessible and simple as possible, and (2) they encourage kids to ask their parents for help and suggestions.  You want everyone in the family to know the kid is doing this, and understanding why it's excitingly educational.  You might include a section at the back or the very front which is addressed head-on to parents, with advice to the kids to show it to them.  Be positive, not defensive.  Literacy is big -- read Lemony Snickett for suggestions on teaching words.

I'm very much in favor of this sort of thing, so long as you don't talk down to the kids.  They can and will work on more complicated things than you think, so long as they want to.  Hell, at that age what were you reading?  They can do stuff that difficult too.

[daMoose_Neo]

^_^ I've learned I can't use myself as a measuring stick. Things I took on by myself in 4th grade the (local) schools only had in advanced classess in 8th grade ^_^ I was told in first grade not to do certain things because 'they will teach you that next year!'-
Experiance is helpful though. I've met some really cool younger kids who can tackle various things far above their 'age group' while I know people my age (21+) who look at me and go "huh?!" when I broach the same topics.
More experiance, more feedback = more knowledgeable and happier Moose.

[Jonathan Walton]

Hey Moose,

It's cool that you're thinking about licensing cool stuff.  I have this dream of tracking down whoever owns The Pirates of Dark Water (talk about 80's retro-cool!) and trying to bargain for a roleplaying license (hey, there was already a game once!), but I haven't gotten beyond the dreaming stage.

As for your questions, I'd advise:

1) Definitely design/market this to all ages.  I've met a ton of elementary school kids who play D&D3. And a ton of 40-year-olds who love Transformers.  Especially with things like Potter and Narnia and Tolkien and Star Wars rearing their ugly heads these days, people are much less into strict divisions along age lines.  Most indie games have focused rules that are great for playing with kids, so there's a ton of support for designs with across-the-board appeal here.

2) I think both choices have advantages.  I used to balk at established systems, but I've seen people do some amazing, diverse things with Fudge and the OGL.  I don't know Tri-Stat well at all (my feeling was always that it was a streamlined GURPS), but I think you're right to explore all the available options.  Still, I'd suggest too that you not dismiss the idea of an original system until you fiddle around with some actual mechanics a bit and see how well you can achieve what you want in a few different ways.  Many people make a decision about system before they've even explored how things might work, which I find simply ridiculous.

3) 7-10 year olds can do pretty complex stuff.  In fact, some of them really enjoy doing it.  I was really into the intricacies of Magic the Gathering when I was a little older than that, and lots of younger kids totally grok that stuff.  The key is not underestimating kids and not talking down to them, but delivering stuff in a clear, understandable, and exciting fashion.

Hope that helps.

[daMoose_Neo]

but I haven't gotten beyond the dreaming stage.

To be perfectly honest, I'm still there! When I managed to track down an e-mail address for the owner, I figured it would be a dud. After hearing nothing for like two weeks I figured "Yup". Then POW, I got a reply.
Do some research, check it out. Can't hurt any ^_^

And a ton of 40-year-olds who love Transformers.

*looks up at shelf* Well, at least I have something I can identify with! Have God-knows how many Gen1 Transformers and almost the entire line of the new Armada set (loved the Prime...hated the 'super Primes') are sitting up there...

Especially with things like Potter and Narnia and Tolkien and Star Wars rearing their ugly heads these days, people are much less into strict divisions along age lines.

Thats why I figured now would be a good time to try to do something with this, with all of the 80's 'retro' stuff coming  back into fashion. I was thoughly thrilled when the guy told me they were relaunching the lines, all I was hoping for was an "Okay, we'll let you do a game for $X", not "Yea, we're relaunching too". And too, that (also in reference to the Transformers) is why I'm a little more torn about who I should gear this toward: Theres myself and folks my age who would probably be all over this and the younger crowd who would be discovering this stuff for the first time.

I don't know Tri-Stat well at all (my feeling was always that it was a streamlined GURPS), but I think you're right to explore all the available options.

The biggest reason I'm considering Tri-Stat is, regretably, a marketing reason. I don't have the resources myself to get the game out there where something like this belongs, BUT: GoO's Magnum Opus allows use of an existing system, they print the book, and they advertise it among their distributors (anything else I pay for, but~ Thats a huge chunk off the top in cash and stress). Also, Tri-Stat is used for all of their own anime-based RPGs, of which this will likely share several facets.
Have to do the homework though. Its an option, alibet a really decent one from a financial perspective, but want to do the game proper justice.

[madelf]

Maybe you could target both to an extent... have a simplified quick-start system for the youngest group, and advanced rules add-on supplements targeted for the older group (and those who grow out of the quick-start).

Heck, you could even make it two separate game lines, like TSR did when they had both D&D and Advanced D&D.

Just some thoughts...

[Andy Kitkowski]

(And Andy K, would really value your input, dealing with lisencing and all!)

Hey man, unfortunately relaying my experiences with Tenra Bansho Zero (check the sig) aren't really helpful to anyone, for several reasons:

1) The license holders were from another country.
1a) That doesn't speak English.
1b) But I spoke their language, so didn't need to deal with translators and those fees and complications.
2) They are ALSO a roleplaying company, so they know the scene a bit.
3) Having their work published in English is a HUGE sign of prestiege to authors in Japan, so I was bringing as much to the table (aside from money) by suggesting the deal.
4) Their company is really small, the entire time I've been speaking directly to the CEO and author/license-holder. No middlemen.
5) They are owned by a gargantuan media publishing conglomerate (An owner of among other things SQUARE/ENIX ("Final Fantasy")). Owning in the loose sense of the word, though, as this company owns pretty much all three major Japanese RPG publishing companies. What happens is they are subsidiaries, they put all their licenses in joint-ownership, and give a small tithe to the Overlord, and in exchange get full access to the Overlord's production, distribution and retail networks.
5a) Problem: All deals from below have to be passed through the media lawyers at Enterbrain.
5b) Resolve: The big company, realizing this was totally small beans (no video game translation, anime/manga publishing, etc) and more in the realm of the small company anyway, officially washed their hands of middle-management involvement, and will simply rely on the judgement of the folks in the RPG company that primarily holds the license. When it comes time, they'll stamp their approval.
6) The folks I'm working with are really laid back, not too concerned about  what we do with the property, just as long as it retains something of its original shape, while aiming at changes that will work for its intended audience.  You know, like, Whatsherface Rowling?  Basically the exact opposite of that.

So, unfortunately, my experiences, while perhaps interesting enough to write a little essay about, will not be very helpful to anyone else. :(

[daMoose_Neo]

Just got off the phone with the owner and I'd guess CEO of the company, so in that respect we're fairly similar ^_^ And, from what I've gathered from the old incarnations of the company it always was a little on the smallish side.
Conversation went fairly well, he's going to look at Final Twilight, even offered to show it to his distributors, was a very brief but informative conversation. He certainly seems open to the idea, though I learned the line is going more digital, so this being a card or Pen and Paper concept I'm not sure if he'll be keen on that or not.
Too, he mentioned in a round about way their target is very much the younger kids (that grandparents and their grandkids would be able to play the same game, says to me a younger crowd). *ponders*

[Mike Holmes]

It's the fricken Smurf's isn't it?

Well, even if it isn't, no matter the case, something like this really needs it's own very targeted game system. In fact, I had a Smurfs RPG back in high-school, and it was very simple and effective at giving the idea that each Smurf was sort of a monopole in terms of how they applied their one meme to everything.

Thundercats, He-man (well, that's already been done, IIRC), Thundarr the Barbarian, the Herculoids, etc, etc, all work on about this level, I'd think.

Mike

[daMoose_Neo]

lol, no, its not the Smurfs. But, they do share some similarities as far as goal.
In a Theory post I asked for some ideas for alternative resolution means, as opposed to die mechanics, X vs Y. Reason being the stories focus on things other than combat and outright conflict, though it does occur occasionally. I'd rather like a system to reflect this or be able to adapt to this if I use another system.

Also, these questions kinda popped in my head the other day (alot goes on in ones mind as you're sick and staring groggily up at the ceiling)-
Right now, its fairly non-formal discussions. I spoke with the gentleman about the future and plans for the line, told him a little about myself and my operation, about Final Twilight, he's going to take a look at that and said I can drop a line at any time to talk~
What I'm wondering is, at what point (should he like the work on Twilight and like to see the notes and ideas for the proposed game) should I really seek legal council and for what? I know no one here is a lawyer, but any tidbit of info I'm not paying $300 per minute for is a little cheaper on me (This could yet be a 'chime in' spot for you, Andy sir!).

[mindwanders]

What I'm wondering is, at what point (should he like the work on Twilight and like to see the notes and ideas for the proposed game) should I really seek legal council and for what? I know no one here is a lawyer, but any tidbit of info I'm not paying $300 per minute for is a little cheaper on me (This could yet be a 'chime in' spot for you, Andy sir!).

I would always say the last possible minute. Get advice from friends and family and look at existing licence contracts that other people use.

Cobble something together from existing contracts (although make sure you get all the self referencing terms sorted out) and feel free to get in touch with a local lawyer for a free consultation if they'll give you one.

The trick is to get the psuedocontract to the point where you both are happy with it before you get a lawyer to go through it, fix the obvious mistakes and write up a full contract.

Remember that everything you do yourself rather than getting the lawyer to do is money not coming out of your pocket. If your time is cheaper than a lawyers, it's better to spend that than money.

Of course don't sign anything until the lawyer has actually gone over it :-)