"Berzerkers" in HeroQuest?

[Snowden]

I realize that "berzerkers" have become a fantasy RPG cliche, but I'm curious as to whether anyone has been able to implement them in HeroQuest.  I'm asking partly because I like the idea of attaching a concrete price to combat effectiveness, and partly because it seems like something that D&D-reared players may wonder about.

It occurred to me that anyone who has enough personality and/or relationship-based augments firing during a physical conflict can effectively be a "berzerker" -- making a "berzerker" PC could be as simple as piling on abilities like "Hot-headed," "Easily enraged," "Blindly loyal to friends," "Reckless," "Ignore injury," "Die for my king," etc.  Advantages: avoids cliched "rage for d6 rounds 3 times per day" approach, encourages players to give their PCs personality and community ties, will probably get them in a lot of trouble outside of combat.  Disadvantages: doesn't easily allow for drastic Jeckyll/Hyde- or hulk-style changes, kind of bland given that in theory all PCs should have this degree of depth.

Maybe this approach could be improved by qualifying some of the abilities ("Enraged when wounded in a fight," "Fight mightily when the odds are against me," "Swing blindly in the heat of battle"), or by clever use of theist feats, affinities, and even heroforming, but I'm still not sure how this would reflect the loss of control that (for me at least) is really the dramatic and tactical point of the archetype.

Does anyone have any thoughts or experience working through this?

[Edited to fix tags]

[Eero Tuovinen]

Like most kewl powerz, it seems to me that berserking is really simple to do in the game: just have a trait called "berserker" at an appropriate level. This does everything needed:
- When a fight is on, the character can use the ability to augment (or even as primary). If you're going for a realistic, pseudohistorical berserk, the character would of course have to work up his rage through ritual.
- When the berserk rage is on, the trait works against rational thought to the extent the players wish; to get the "loss of control" situation, just have the berserk stumble on a loved one in midst of battle and make a contest between the berserk rage and the relationship trait to see what the mad bull does this time.
- I personally would handle berserking as a common magic type thing, just because I like mythic proportions. Alternatively, it could be a part of a specific cult practice, like it apparently was in prechristian Scandinavia.
- Alternatively you can consider berserking as just a fighting style, like anything given in the occupation keywords. It happens to be a fighting style that disallows tactics and makes you a bloodthirsty monster, but so what? Another fighting style makes you really good with a bow, but doesn't help you at all in melee. It's all good.

Of course, berserking can be augmented by everything that you mentioned - the character's impetiousness an recklessness will certainly make his rage all the more powerful. Still, by requiring the specific trait of "Berserker" you can emphasize that this is a mental discipline, not a common rage. Only berserkers can berserk, not everyone with "Hate X" or "Love battle".

Remember, a system like HQ doesn't need modelling of anything. You don't have to try to define berserking in an objective way by calling it "enraged after getting wounded" (That's not even close to how viking berserks worked by all accounts, to boot!) or "Fighting better against overwhelming opposition" (that doesn't have anything to do with berserks, either). The only thing you need is a rough concensus between players about what you mean with the word. The same thing as anything else at all in the game: when you want a character who knows how to ride, you can just write "Ride 1w2" or whatever on the character sheet. You don't need "Knows how to handle horses he's sitting on" or any other detailed specification. To the contrary, trying to do a detailed specification will just tie your hands: if you don't have the "berserker" trait, but instead have "enrages in battle", you can use your rage only for battle purposes, and only if raging would be helpful. "Berserker" is a much more interesting trait: it can be a social trait (like with dwarven berserkers in Warhammer), a religious trait (if berserking is a gift of the gods), a magical blessing (Work yourself in a berserk rage to lift the haywagon? Sounds good to me.). All in all, a much better deal than some "Enrages easily".

[Mike Holmes]

Interestingly, Hero Wars before HQ did have rules for Berzerking. So it does happen to be appropriate to Glorantha, I believe. In fact, I think it's something that Heortlings commonly do.

Allow the player to take it as a flaw. If he does so, then it's merely giving the narrator the OK to use it against the player all the time. And the player can take it as high as he wants for free. Just taking more rope to hang himself with, as it were.

"Roll to calm down now that the foes are all down, and not to attack Ragnar who's right beside you."

Mike

[Snowden]

Euro: thanks a lot for the historical perspective; as you can see I don't really know a whole lot about the historical context (pseudo- or otherwise!) at hand.  It sounds like you're describing a single ability that can be used (with plenty of color added) as an augment or primary in a variety of situations, and that carries certain disadvantages when activated.

I would be concerned that while as you point out "Berzerk" could have a wide and interesting range of applications, it seems like in a straight-up brawl the berzerker wouldn't be any more effective than the hero who had put the same number of points into "Fight fiercely," and would have to deal with a variety of disadvantages to boot.  I'd worry that this would work to undercut the concept itself -- a mad bull is only exciting if he's a real threat to those around him.  Mike's suggestion to treat the "Berzerk" ability as a free flaw would solve this in a fairly explosive way, of course...

On the other hand, I also really like the idea of treating it theist magic, with "Berzerk" as a required ability.  Euro, do you have any historical research suggestions (websites, authors, titles, etc.) for coming up with affities and feats?

[Eero Tuovinen]

First, listen to Mike, he's the guru. It's a good idea to make berserking a flaw, that's exactly the kind of constructive way to use flaws he's always harping about. A great example.

More generally, it's not necessary for the berserker to be actually more efficient in battle, it's enough for him to be cooler. And he most definitely is cooler than some milksop with "Good Fighter". But as Mike said, give it out as a flaw - then the player can get it on top of the other fighting stuff he has.

Second, I suggest that social and cultural contexts are absolutely crucial for this kind of stuff to work in a roleplaying game, as opposed to a tactical fighting game. What the berserking means is what makes it interesting. This is something that's very badly misunderstood in gamer culture in general, and something that has to be understood for HeroQuest to work. The rules are such that no ability will ever be interesting if it's "just" an ability - there has to be more stuff, too. If a fireball is a fireball, the character will simply be lame. If he's the guy who controls the banefire of Elmor, given to him by the Spirit Magnificent, well, that has potential. You see the rules - every ability works practically the same way, so the the player is forced to differentiate himself. And that means that all kinds of cool stuff will be unearthed, stuff that's simply not relevant in D&D, for example.

For research sources, consider this: berserking has come to roleplaying from old medieval stories about (mainly) viking warriors who went to a kind of battle trance before combat. The stories say that they had secret rites (apparently including a hallucinogenic poison mushroom) before battle, where they focused their mind on their god Odin. A raging, extatic state was reached. The berserkers were supposed to be completely fearless and addrenaline-pumped as a result, chewing on their shields and waiting to do battle. This is the picture medieval monks give us.

More generally, the berserkers were apparently some kind of religious gangs. Among the northmen themselves it was said that berserkers could change into bears. In some points of history they were little more than outlaws or professional soldiers, while at other points they were highly respected elite warriors. The Odin cult among the rulers of the Norse society apparently increased the status of berserkers, his holy warriors, as well.

Also, there's a history of berserkers within the celtic peoples as well. It's said that the body paints they used (the "woad") had hallucinogenic properties, and one of their greatest heroes, Chu Chulain (or however that's translitterated) is depicted as a berserker. So, when looking for the historical roots of the gaming phenomenon, take a look at viking and celtic history, it's all there.

Still, it's not enough to look to history, myth is important as well. I recommend the English 2000AD comic book Slaine for a weird, celtic berserker...

[Mike Holmes]

Like Eero says, cultural context. From my POV, what I usually do is allow the player to take the ability, and then build the context with the characters actions. That is, unless the culture seemed just wrong for berzerking, I'd allow it, and then build the details in play.

Most importantly, on the flaw idea - it's just one possibility. That is, basically, allow the player to define it however he likes. That is, if the player thinks his character never gets out of control then it's just something he has to buy normally. If he thinks that it's a flaw, then it's a flaw for his character.

IOW, too much planning going on here. It's just another ability, and should come out in play per player demand. Yeah, if you have a culture spelled out that has berzerking, then work it into some appropriate keyword somewhere. But, otherwise, it's just modeled like anything else.

Which leaves a lot of options. Here's a more extreme option - there's speculation the Berzerk meant Bear Skin or something like that (Bare Skin?), which makes sense, because we believe that real berzerks wore bear skins, and were probably channeling bear powers. Sounds like Animism to me, but it could be any of the three magics. What is important is that the character is channeling a bear. So you can use the heroforming rules in this case - the character becomes melded with some bear spirit or hero from the past. This can be a very potent way to go.

I'm sure there are other options. Basically get a description from your player, and work it out from there. There are probably loads of ways to handle it, even in the same game.

Mike

[Jane]

So it does happen to be appropriate to Glorantha, I believe. In fact, I think it's something that Heortlings commonly do.

And it has been for years before HW came out, too. There are cults that specialise in it, Storm Bull/Urox being the most obvious example, and Babeester Gor probably the next.

Interestingly, Hero Wars before HQ did have rules for Berzerking.

I was never very impressed by them myself, but FWIW, HW p42.

"Once a character invokes berserker magic, he has become a raving death machine, and will attack anyone or anything in their way. The berserk fit lasts until the end of the combat contest... (may attack friends).. The berserker may attempt to recognise his friends using an appropriate ability, but must do so with a penalty equal to 1/2 his rating in the berserk ability.....

Berserk magic requires that the user bid at least 1/2 his current AP each round, but provides an edge equal to 1/4 the users's ability rating in the berserker magic"

"Edge" as a concept has been almost dropped in HQ, of course. But you get the idea.

[Donald]

Interestingly, Hero Wars before HQ did have rules for Berzerking. So it does happen to be appropriate to Glorantha, I believe. In fact, I think it's something that Heortlings commonly do.

Not exactly commonly, it is cult magic of Humakt, Urox and Babeester Gor. It works the same way as any other affinity/feat. It is however a killing rage so may not distinguish between friend and foe. Basically the Hero Wars book gives rules for recognise friend contests and talk berserk down contests.

[Snowden]

Euro, it's funny you should mention "Slaine," as I was thinking about that comic myself -- on top of the berzerker angle, it's interesting how they turned the "traditional" druid paradigm on its head in some ways.  I'll see if I can dig up the few issues I have...

This thread has been very helpful; I think there have been suggestions to cover just about any angle the player(s) decide to take -- religious practice (theism), animal spirit possession (animism), and individual discipline (talent).  Thanks!

[Ian Cooper]

I was never very impressed by them myself, but FWIW, HW p42.

"Once a character invokes berserker magic, he has become a raving death machine, and will attack anyone or anything in their way. The berserk fit lasts until the end of the combat contest... (may attack friends).. The berserker may attempt to recognise his friends using an appropriate ability, but must do so with a penalty equal to 1/2 his rating in the berserk ability.....

Berserk magic requires that the user bid at least 1/2 his current AP each round, but provides an edge equal to 1/4 the users's ability rating in the berserker magic"

There are conversion notes for these old HW rules to HQ in the Storm Tribe conversion notes on the website:

http://www.herowars.com/support/HQConversion_1310.html

In summary, just replace edge with an augment equal to 1/4 and you are there.

My only real problem with this is that it breaks the 'no special rules' feel of HQ. In addition it becomes very different in an extended and simple contest, which, again, I would try to avoid. I would rather treat beserker magic as any other form of magic i.e it gives you the same augment.

Sure I would expect that somebody under beserker magic was making high bids, but I would hope that came out of play rather than being a 'rules' element. In addition I would expect a beserker to keep fighting until defeated, with the attempts to calm him just another contest, or part of the extended contest. The beserker magic ability might be an appopriate default resistance here.

[Mike Holmes]

Well said, Ian.

That said, if it's a "Secret" then the one-quarter augment seems par for the course. Hmm. We may need a thread on the viability of that altogether.

Mike