Rephrase: I was approached for publication and need advice

[Ferry Bazelmans]

Hey guys, I got an email yesterday from a wellknown company asking me if I was willing to work with them to get my game SOAP published.

They are a company of good repute and I don't fear working with them, but I was wondering what sensible things I could do to ensure that in the end no one walks away with a dissatisfied feeling...

Any hints and/or tips from the pros, semi-pros and anyone who has any experience?

Crayne

[Ron Edwards]

Ferry,

No one can tell you what to do, or even advise you. This is strictly a personal decision. What I can do is provide my own philosophical position about this issue, for you to compare with your own.

1) No one needs to "help" you publish your game. Publishing is phenomenally easy, given the willingness to spend some money. The difficulty in role-playing is not publishing, but marketing and distribution.

2) If someone besides you spends money to get your game published, they own it. Don't be fooled by some "you retain the rights" line of bullshit; if they spent the money, then they make the decisions. Companies are not bound by the contracts they sign. Creators are. If someone can change the text, make art and format decisions, and decide whether they'll sell it to someone else, then as far as I'm concerned, they own the property, no matter what some piece of paper says.

3) Publishers routinely approach small-press creators and offer to publish their stuff, and then disappear. It happened with Sorcerer, with Elfs, with Orbit, and with many others. In every case I know of, it was a case of (if you'll excuse the expression) the Industry Blowjob. This means they tie up the property, make a lot of grandiose promises, even sign a contract, and - eventually - drop the project, usually because some other ephemeral thing caught their attention or because they realize that the creator insists on maintaining control.

I repeat, breaking a contract means nothing to a publishing company.

4) Bear in mind that if someone wants to publish your game, that means that they think your material is better than their material. It means that they see a chance to make some money using your work. If they're right, and the property is well worth something, then why cut them in on it at all? No one can make your game "live" any better than you can; all they can do is (1) pay to put it between covers and (2) take its ownership away.

5) Finally, Soap is brilliant. It is yours, and it has already had a tremendous impact on literally hundreds of role-players. Its market potential is tremendous. The thought of anyone but you having any degree of control over it ... well, again, it's your business.

Best,
Ron

[TheRef]

I'm not surprised seeing this thread hasn't filled up with replies; scary thing to give advice.

Ferry, if you *are* happy with a little compensation and want to move on to the next thing, do it.

If you are not finished with Soap, then keep it and publish it yourself.  All it takes to get something in print is money.  Anyone can do it.

Ron nailed it: Marketing is the real work.  Money + effort.  But don't ask me in what amounts.  

Here's what I think of your game: Soap is a lot bigger and more popular than you probably realize.  It could be your 'Sgt. Pepper'.  I'd go all out crazy with it and make it blow up on my own.

JsD
orbit-rpg.com

[GMSkarka]

3) Publishers routinely approach small-press creators and offer to publish their stuff, and then disappear.

Let me add a qualification to Ron's statement, based on my experience: I have yet to see a real, established publisher approach ANY outside creator with an offer to publish their stuff, unsolicited.   The simple fact of the matter is this:  Large and mid-sized publishers have design staffs, with PLENTY of in-house ideas for products, and most small publishers were founded specifically to release the product ideas of the founders.

Obviously, YMMV (as Ron's obviously does), but I'd have to say that if a publisher approached me, unsolicited, and offered to publish my stuff (rather than asking me to write for THEIR stuff, which happens all the time), it would send up so many red flags for me that my mind would look like Beijing on the 1st of May.

In short: Real publishers have their own product ideas, and the staff to come up with more.  They don't go fishing for others.

GMS

[Ron Edwards]

Gareth,

Good point. Different mileages, but it looks like we're driving to the same spot on this issue.

Best,
Ron

[Ferry Bazelmans]

...now I'll never trust anyone in the Industry again (which creates an interesting paradox, since I can't trust you either ;) ).

1) No one needs to "help" you publish your game. Publishing is phenomenally easy, given the willingness to spend some money. The difficulty in role-playing is not publishing, but marketing and distribution.

I would agree, but money is exceptionally tight. I'm 25, my girlfriend is a homemaker, there's a kiddy coming (though not 100% sure, check back with me in two weeks after the blood test :)) and I have mortgage payments. It'll be a long time before SOAP gets published by my own hand...

3) Publishers routinely approach small-press creators and offer to publish their stuff, and then disappear. It happened with Sorcerer, with Elfs, with Orbit, and with many others. In every case I know of, it was a case of (if you'll excuse the expression) the Industry Blowjob. This means they tie up the property, make a lot of grandiose promises, even sign a contract, and - eventually - drop the project, usually because some other ephemeral thing caught their attention or because they realize that the creator insists on maintaining control.

Okay, I was hoping to avoid this for the time being, but it was Wingnut Games. Do they have a habit of giving out blowjobs (as per your own description)?

5) Finally, Soap is brilliant. It is yours, and it has already had a tremendous impact on literally hundreds of role-players. Its market potential is tremendous.

Which continues to amaze me to no end. I'm extremely flattered by anyone who thinks it's even halfway decent. :)

Ferry  (Crayne)

[Ferry Bazelmans]

Obviously, YMMV (as Ron's obviously does), but I'd have to say that if a publisher approached me, unsolicited, and offered to publish my stuff (rather than asking me to write for THEIR stuff, which happens all the time), it would send up so many red flags for me that my mind would look like Beijing on the 1st of May.

Yes, but you are a published author and have experience in self-publishing. Same goes for Ron really. I have no clue and since there is no one around here who publishes RPGs (Holland), I have no local leads for things like printers etc.
Besides, by getting a company in the US to print it, I'll get to my main market immediately, without having to print them here and then ship them there.

See my dilemma?

I know this might sound extremely naive, but as I said, I am really as green as a lot of green things.

Fer

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Ferry,

H'mmmmm .... well, OK, let's look just at logistics again.

First of all, you can use a printer in the U.S., unless I'm mistaken about some kind of policy issue. You could do just what I did - go to Wizard's Attic, get their list of printers, and describe the physical product to them. They will tell you, for free, how much it will cost to print however many of them you say. All of them can handle receiving a PDF as email or perhaps on a zip disk.

Second, and this is more important, the real piece of the equation is who solicits orders for you from distributors. Being published by someone else is not a guarantee that this will be done well. It's badly handled by many companies, and conditions change so rapidly in the industry that you need really up-to-date information about who can do it well. This strikes me as an important thread topic.

Anyway, Ferry, I meant it when I said that it's really your decision. I hope all the comments can provide perspective, and at least express what to watch out for or ask about. Who knows, maybe you can work out a very good arrangement with the company, but my main concern is that you know what you're getting into and don't simply trust them to have your best interests in mind without asking about important things first.

Best,
Ron

[Ferry Bazelmans]

First of all, you can use a printer in the U.S., unless I'm mistaken about some kind of policy issue. You could do just what I did - go to Wizard's Attic, get their list of printers, and describe the physical product to them. They will tell you, for free, how much it will cost to print however many of them you say. All of them can handle receiving a PDF as email or perhaps on a zip disk.

Okay, that was a bit rash of me, assuming I'd have to print it in The Netherlands. But still, I'm a very hands on guy. If given half the chance, I'm there watching the paper go in and watching the books come out. :)

Second, and this is more important, the real piece of the equation is who solicits orders for you from distributors. Being published by someone else is not a guarantee that this will be done well. It's badly handled by many companies, and conditions change so rapidly in the industry that you need really up-to-date information about who can do it well. This strikes me as an important thread topic.

I think it is. Many people seem focussed on the printing aspect, without giving thought to the distribution.

Anyway, Ferry, I meant it when I said that it's really your decision. I hope all the comments can provide perspective, and at least express what to watch out for or ask about. Who knows, maybe you can work out a very good arrangement with the company, but my main concern is that you know what you're getting into and don't simply trust them to have your best interests in mind without asking about important things first.

Which is exactly why I started this thread. :)
I know you people. You know the ropes and I don't. Any advice you can give me is extremely welcome...

Fer

[Bailey]

I think printing in Canada is a good thing.  You can get quotes in US or Canadian dollars, lock in, and send the cash in whichever is easiest on you if the exchange rate fluctuates.  The savings can seriously add up over time.  It's been a while since I was an indie rocker, but it was nice for getting album art.  The only thing that might be a problem would be customs since you're sending actual product instead of just inserts across the Border.

If you aren't going for the US market primarily then get your printing done as close to your distributors as possible.  Again, not sure if this applies to the gaming industry like it does to the music biz, but distributors are not to be trusted.

[Jack Spencer Jr]

Hey, Ferry

I think that JsD"TheRef"'s comment is more helpful.  

If SOAP is done as far as you're concerned and you're ready to move on to something else, then it would seem that to sell it to Wingnut or whoever is a good idea.

If you don't feel like it's done or you're just not willing to give up too much in regards to SOAP, then don't.  Not even if they drive a dumptruck full of money up to your house.

Option #1 is a good idea since then the headache of producing & distributing the game is out of your hands.  Just be sure to read the contract they make you sign very carefully.  Be sure that it includes some kind of guarenteed royalties and that the rights will revert back to you after production ceases for a period of time, even if the game changes hands or whatnot.  In any case, consult a lawyer.

But this way, your game will be professionally published and you won't have to do anything except sign a piece of paper and wait for the check.  You could then spend the time you would've spent dealing with printer problems, hyping your game, etc on other things like some new game, playing the game you already have or, more to the point, your girlfriend and your possible new baby.

The downside is you do sign away a lot, depending on the deal.  But if retaining ownership isn't a priority, then that's not a big issue.

Option #2 is also good because your game remains yours.  Plain and simple.  Any money made off of it is yours.  However, for it to make any money will require a lot of work, and even then it might not pan out and you're left with a garage full of unsold game books.  Or it might pan out beautifully and next thing you know, your Backlight Bar Publishing is a company that rivals WoTC during the heyday of Magic: the Gathering.

This option is a gamble, but it is a gamble that might might have a substantial payoff.

Chances are better that you'll break even or, perhaps, make a small profit.

But, like Ron said, it is your decision.  But even though he kept saying that you can tell he'd rather you retained ownership.  But that's not his decision to make.  it's yours.

I can see Option #2 simply not being possible for everyone.  You can figure it will cost maybe $5,000 US to make your game  (I pulled this number for various websites on game publishing.  This number kept coming up) and you should consider this money you can  lose.  That is, do not bet your mortgage payment on this.  It should be liquid cash in one form or another that while it may pinch if you do lose it, you're not ruined and living on the street.

Basically, what matters is how you feel about it.

Are you willing to give up as much of your rights to SOAP as it would take or are you hesitant and would rather retain ownership even if you'll never be able to publish it?

How you answer this question is the choice you should make.

BTW I've heard of Wingnut Games.  I don't anything about them, tho', so I'm no help for you there.  But they're not just some guy trying to scam you.  They are a real game company.  But they aren't that big.  I don't know of any of their products.  But I don't exactly keep tabs on everybody & everything in the game industry.

[Dav]

Crayne:

In my not-so humble opinion, there is a single brace of questions that determines the whole fiasco:

1)  How attached are you to your product?

2)  What does your gut say?


If you are quite attached to your product, there is truly only a single answer:  fuck them.  That's just the way it is.

However, if your attachment is mediated by a buy price, then there is something to talk about.  (Keep in mind here that I am attaching no negative connotations to the fact that money may be more important to you than your game)  Now, before getting tizzied, get them to send you a prelimnary contract.  Then read it.

Can you understand it?

If you can, chances are, it is not a binding contract.  Binding contracts MUST be written in legal language.  This means that, in most cases, you need third party professional advice before signing the contract.  

However, check for two things:

1) Duration of inactivity clauses

2) Kill fee

This protects you.  If it isn't there, tell them to put it in.  A duration of inactivity clause would read along the lines of:  "Should [the Company] fail to produce [the Game] in [X amount of time], this contract is voided with a requisite Kill Fee of [$X] paid to [the Client]."

Now, this IS binding.  Quite binding.  Durations of contract are always important, because it mediates the risk that these people just sit and twiddle with your shit to no purpose.  

Also, it is important to maintain a division of content of our game versus owned property of the company.  Because the company may publish and even profit from your game, does not, de facto, mean that rights of the product are transferred to their hands.  Printing rights, and intellectual rights are divided (at least in the U.S.).  The fact that you have made your game publicly available grants you prima facie protection of your product, even if you sign a contract.  Just make certain that contract specifically spells-out the division between intellectual and printing rights.

Finally, make sure that payment is specifically dealt with, and that a time when you get paid is specifically defined.  

And, it is fine for your to request additions or changes to a contract before you sign a finished draft.  


Anyway, my two cents.  So long as you include clauses spelling duties and creating due diligence on the company's behalf, they become specifically bound to the contract as well, and must faithfully execute their end of the deal.  If not, you can break contract with them to no penalty and (under U.S. law) sue them for majority share of any further issue of the company.


Dav