[Thrash 2.0] Action Points

[neko ewen]

I'm finally seriously working on the new version of my fighting game martial arts RPG; one of the things I was never really happy with for the game was the Action Points system's implementation. I'm working on a new way of handling APs that seems really promising in terms of creating the kind of gameplay I want, but I'd like some C&C on it. I have it tenatively mapped out in my head and in scribbled notes as follows:


Characters start combat with zero AP, and gain 3 at the beginning of every turn. Characters can save AP from one turn to the next, but there's a cap of 6 that a character can have stored (got this part from Xenosaga in case you were wondering).

A character's saved APs become a bonus to initiative, and on a given character's turn he can spend none, some, or all of his APs as his maneuvers and such allow. Basic defenses don't cost AP to use, but there's a cumulative penalty for defenses after the first. Special defensive maneuvers will cost AP, and a character can spend 1 AP to use a basic defense and "reset" the multiple defense penalties to zero.

Counterattacks are the major thing where I find myself liking this system; characters have an incentive to save AP, and look for the right moment to use them up on a counter. Some maneuvers will have a special ability to counter particular types of moves (Dragon Punch counters aerial attacks for example). Any attack can potentially be used as a counter, but with an increase AP cost and other penalties if it's not designed to do so.


There are still a few other things I'd like to hear more opinions on.

This system makes it so that every character is exactly the same with regard to APs (in earlier versions of Thrash it could be raised, albeit expensively, and also doubled as the determining factor for Initiative). While I'm trying to take more of a Keep It Simple kind of approach to the game, I wonder if it might be desirable to add more variability to APs between characters.

The other thing is the scale of APs (only 6 maximum; light attacks use 2, heavy attacks use 3, and supers 4-6); one of the guys on the Thrash mailing list suggested basing it more off of the AP system in the Front Mission series, which is to say making it a bit more granular, and with movement relying more on how many APs you're willing to budget for it.

[mark2v]

I like the new thrash AP ideas you are presenting alot. Being able to save ap and budget it as you see fit adds to the turn by turn tactical decisions a player needs to make.
Suggestions:
Allow the players to stockpile a few more (Even up to 9 APs, or 3 turns worth of Ap?) Then add in more costs on based defense or movement in order to burn off points. Having blocking an attack cost Ap = to the cost of the attack its self, for example. As read the current AP idea may lead to considerable turtling during game play in order to save up 2 turn's worth of Ap in order to launch a super, regardless of the negative modifiers for blocking.  Having negative effects of related to multiple blocking out side the confines of the AP system may add another layer of complexity to each round that could be avoided, and seems to punish the player for trying to set up his or her stronger attacks. I could be very wrong however, and may have misunderstood some point of the system.

I also have to say I was excited to see this post. I downloaded the original Thrash game some time back (several years) and played it with my old ADND group, we all enjoyed considerably. I had written a wrestling game at the time and it had a similar AP system to thrash, so it was naturally very interesting to me. Well a few PC's and a hard drive crash latter I had lost Thrash and missed it. I had also lost track of the sight I originally downloaded the game from. This is a blast from the past to me. I am excited to see you working n the idea again and am really looking forward to the finished product.

[Ultimate Chicken]

Some insight here...

You might want to keep initiative variability to a minimum (i.e determine turn order before each battle AND keep it that way), because recalculating who goes first every turn can get pretty annoying. I strongly suggest not giving the bonus to init for storing AP, instead allowing players to store that AP indefinitely.

You might also want to give combatants more starting AP per turn, since you have to factor in the fact that they have to close in with each other before they start attacking, as well as possibly 'doing other things' during battle (like looking frantically for something that could serve as a makeshift weapon). Projectile weapons and guns might cost more AP per turn to use, so there should be no problems there.

If you're implementing this, I suggest starting AP per turn be 6 and max AP storage be 6, for a potential total of 12, which is more than enough to perform any given special move in the 1.8 ed book without modding, except supermoves.

(You should, however, rewrite the entire special moves section as well to better adapt for this change...

Either that or have maneuvers that take up more than the AP a character has on hand inflict an equivalent penalty on his AP gain next turn, as he recovers from performing that move...

And rule that a character should only be able to act each turn if he starts with more than 0 AP).

AP variability can be given as a disadvantage/advantage, like this:

Clumsy/Action Boy:
Cost: -4 / 4  per level (maximum 2 levels)
Effect: +(level) / -(level) to the AP cost of each move. Maneuver costs can not go below 1 AP.

You can also have other disadvantages/advantages that alters starting AP OR AP storage values.

I'd also like to propose two new systems for performing Supermoves, modded versions of the stuff I concieved back in my old campagin because some of my players ever got to perform their supers under the Rage system (they unwisely had life totals below Rage thresholds, so they usually get KO'd before ever getting to use supers):

1. Taking a hint from King of Fighters '94/'95, implement a 'super meter' as another, alternative 'storage source'. As an alternative to saving your AP for the next turn, you can use AP to 'charge' the meter, which  is 6-9 points long (You are only allowed to throw in up to 3AP per turn). Once the meter is full, you can perform your supermove, which would empty this meter as well as cost you all the AP you have remaining  for use and that you've saved (i.e you end the turn with EXACTLY 0 AP).

2. The old skool Fatal Fury/Art of Fighting system. You are allowed to perform a super if your life total is 1/3 of your maximum, rounded down. Supers cost 12APs (no buts), are not affected by any AP modification traits or abilities, and must be performed with a full AP storage load.

Hope these helps. I'll be around if there are any additional questions.

[neko ewen]

It's been my experience that the more a player is allowed to toy with the AP costs of his maneuvers, the more abusive those maneuvers will inevitably become. That's in part why in the new version a light basic attack is 2 and a heavy one is 3; especially with the Strength bonus applied to each one, several jabs would be much more effective than the same AP worth of fierce punches.

One of the new things is that for Supers characters have a lot of room for customization. How Super points are gained, how they're used, and how they relate to super maneuvers can all be tweaked. I'm also making super points a bit simpler to manage; if your character gains Super from successfully defending, you just gain 1 Super every time you pull that off, and it takes 10 to do a standard super move. For the Art of Fighting thing you mentioned, there's an advantage called "Desperation." These can be determined by the player, or the GM can set up a "Groove" template for all of the characters (ala Capcom Vs. SNK 2), and letting the players pay the difference in character point cost if they want something different.

Allow the players to stockpile a few more (Even up to 9 APs, or 3 turns worth of Ap?) Then add in more costs on based defense or movement in order to burn off points. Having blocking an attack cost Ap = to the cost of the attack its self, for example. As read the current AP idea may lead to considerable turtling during game play in order to save up 2 turn's worth of Ap in order to launch a super, regardless of the negative modifiers for blocking.  Having negative effects of related to multiple blocking out side the confines of the AP system may add another layer of complexity to each round that could be avoided, and seems to punish the player for trying to set up his or her stronger attacks. I could be very wrong however, and may have misunderstood some point of the system.

The multiple-defense penalty rule is mainly meant to affect two parts of the game.

One is making mooks capable of actually hitting a player character if enough of them gang up on him -- without going too far and making it actually impossible for him defend after a short while. In the old version it was 2 AP per Parry and 5 per Dodge and it'd only take four or five attacks in a round for a character to be all out of AP and thus totally screwed if there were more guys with AP left wanting to cause damage.

I like the idea of the AP cost of defending depending on the attack... One change I've been thinking about is having Parry not be a simple defense, but a move that if successful allows you to soak X damage if successful; maybe characters could have the option of spending more AP to soak extra damage?

The other thing is that it provides a benefit to "comboing" two or three attacks in a turn. There were also some issues with special defensive moves being too powerful, Leap Dodge being by far the worst offender, and totally replacing the basic Parry and Dodge.

I also have to say I was excited to see this post. I downloaded the original Thrash game some time back (several years) and played it with my old ADND group, we all enjoyed considerably. I had written a wrestling game at the time and it had a similar AP system to thrash, so it was naturally very interesting to me. Well a few PC's and a hard drive crash latter I had lost Thrash and missed it. I had also lost track of the sight I originally downloaded the game from. This is a blast from the past to me. I am excited to see you working n the idea again and am really looking forward to the finished product.

I'm glad I'm finally getting something done for the game. ^^; I've had endless false starts along the way, but I think I've finally matured enough as a game designer to do it how I want to. My goal is to get a beta ready by March 2005... but a paying RPG writing job just landed in my lap and I don't know if I'll really be able to do that. I'm still gonna try though. :3