[GroupDesign: Schrodinger's War] So we need a website...

[Sydney Freedberg]

The latest page of the mechanics thread has starting going into the fact that this project is starting to need its own website -- an issue of such importance I think it deserves its own thread in the proper forum, to whit Publishing (voila).

The key issues I'd like to address (and other people can point out glaring omissions, as always) are

1) What kind of website can we put up at a reasonable cost in time and effort and money (I'm a big fan of free, myself)

2) What should that website do?

I lack any technical expertise to address (1).

As for (2), I think the near-term bare-minimum is "the website should give an overview of the project and provide links to each GroupDesign thread on the Forge, updated whenever a new thread is launched or closed" (just as the now-closed Index Thread tried to do). In the medium term, the website is a logical place to post playtest rules for download.  As for longterm plans for actual publication of a finished version -- well, RPGnow, the Forge Bookshelf, and other venues may have more infrastructure for that than anything we set up ourselves, but I may be wrong.

I personally do NOT think we should move discussion of this project from the Forge Indie Game Design forums to another site; this project was born on the Forge and continuing to operate on the Forge allows us to keep the circle of contributors open and draw in new talent in a way going off to our own wiki or board does not. Again, feel free to tell me I'm wrong.

[Trevis Martin]

Here comes the wiki guy again...

I advocate Wiki of course.  If you're looking for a space to correlate all the information for the game (which is not yet a huge amount in terms of the size of text files.  I'd be willing to set up a web for you at Golden Chain Press (see my sig.)  The advantage is everyone wanting to contribute can edit without a lot of expertise.  You can keep development discussions herer (wiki's don't work that well as bulliten boards,) but its handy for evolving documents.

Another option if you are interested in wikis is wikicities  Which hosts wikis for free and uses the mediawiki software (the same software used for wikipedia.)

best,

Trevis

(edited to fix bbcode for url)

[jerry]

1) What kind of website can we put up at a reasonable cost in time and effort and money (I'm a big fan of free, myself)

2) What should that website do?

I lack any technical expertise to address (1).

Your number one concern should be ensuring that the site is easy for you to update. Otherwise, your lack of technical expertise will result in your site being out of date; but for most people today, your site, out of date or not, will be the canonical source of information about your project.

I would recommend something like Macromedia Contribute; it is inexpensive and works basically like a word processor.

If you want to go with a CMS, weblog, or wiki, there are many systems that you can use, though someone with technical expertise will probably need to set it up for you. I'd recommend something open source and commonly used, so that you have a large supply of potential developers.

Something like Geeklog, or Movable Type, or many others, should do the job for you.

The main issue with a dynamic site like that is, you need to keep things updated or you will run the risk of getting hacked. So you need to pay attention to the web site of the cms you're using, and when an update comes out you need to apply it or have someone else apply it.

If you go with a hosting service such as Pair.net, they will have some options available for you with relatively easy set up, such as:

Geeklog on Pair

Other sites probably have even easier to set up content management systems. Some may even handle updating to new versions automatically.

Advantages of many systems such as Geeklog include that they support RSS feeds, making it easy to link to sites that provide RSS feeds and have content automatically update. Whether that would work for "syndicating" your discussions here to your project's web site, I don't know. But if it did, this would make things easier for you.

If your project is going to be a short one, you could probably go with any free site, but if your project is a long one, having your own domain or your own permanent folder on a topical site, is always a good idea.

But whatever you do, I'd recommend making sure that you have easy access to it. If you don't, it will just get out of date.

Jerry

[Sydney Freedberg]

{Sydney blinks, puts down sharpened stick, scratches self under animal furs, grunts}

"Easy to update even if you're a technical ignoramus" is a key qualification, I take it. Keeping in mind that what we're going to be updating is probably most (1) links to Forge threads and (2) MS Word or Adobe Acrobat files of rules drafts, what' kind of things are easy to update? (E.g. is a wiki really that great for posting "rules version v0.3," especially if you want to keep v0.2 available for comparison?)

[jerry]

"Easy to update even if you're a technical ignoramus" is a key qualification, I take it. Keeping in mind that what we're going to be updating is probably most (1) links to Forge threads and (2) MS Word or Adobe Acrobat files of rules drafts, what' kind of things are easy to update? (E.g. is a wiki really that great for posting "rules version v0.3," especially if you want to keep v0.2 available for comparison?)

It really sounds like all you want is some way of editing pages and uploading files. If only one person is going to be doing it, use Netscape Composer. It's free, it works pretty much like a word processor, and it handles uploads.

If more than one person are going to be doing the site, then as long as you aren't doing anything dynamic, you can always just have the person editing it edit it directly from the site. But you need to impress upon them to always recheck the page they're editing before they upload (to make sure that someone else hasn't just made a change that they'll clobber if they do an upload).

If you don't think you can do that, you need to get some content management software of some kind to ensure that no one accidentally clobbers someone else's work. Such such as Contribute, a weblog (which ensures this, usually, simply by making each new update be a new article), or some sort of online web editor such as Big Medium. But once you decide you need content management, even very basic content management, there is going to be some set up of some kind and some learning process.

And whatever you get, always keep backups somehow.

Jerry

[daMoose_Neo]

Space for the site doesn't seem to be a problem, I've already offered space on our server as well as Trevis. Seems now we need to work out just how its going to run.

I'd say, if we're looking for an index as opposed to a development, a basic site, FTP access and a nice little layout about the project would work easily. Heck I can even throw together a PHP script (easy) so all you'd have to do Syd is upload up a text file (click a button that says "Upload" and pow!) and it'd be plugged right into the page.

[Doug Ruff]

I think we should be careful of running before we can walk here.

For starters, Sydney has said (and I agree) that the discussion of this project should stay on the Forge. Part of the reason for the whole project was to see whether we organise a "groupdesign" over the Forge, and I think that it's still relevant.

However, we're now at a stage where we need to move some basic elements of the project away from the Forge BB itself. The main two things the website needs to produce at this stage of the project are "indexing" (links to all the threads here) and a "library" of any mechanics (or any long essays on the setting etc) that we want to make available for discussion.

I genuinely think that's all for now. At a later stage, and especially when we are agreed on the basic elements of the game and need to start drafting publishable content, then we will need more. But I don't think that's necesary right now, especially as we have yet to decide how to publish.

I'd say, if we're looking for an index as opposed to a development, a basic site, FTP access and a nice little layout about the project would work easily. Heck I can even throw together a PHP script (easy) so all you'd have to do Syd is upload up a text file (click a button that says "Upload" and pow!) and it'd be plugged right into the page.

This looks like it would fit the bill.


PS Apologies for lack of posting recently, I'm having another stab at some mechanics and am struggling with some of the basic concepts again. When I've got something readable I'll contact Sydney, in the meantime I'll keep checking here for updates.

[Tobias]

My 2 cents:

Trevis' Wiki would, I think be fine. (Not disparaging the other fine options that have been mentioned - I just think the Wiki will fit our current and future needs best).

Check out the Universalis Wiki in Trevis' sig for a look.

Discussion stays at the Forge.

I am ill. Apologies for (unintended) bluntness or possible lack of posting the upcoming week.

[Andrew Morris]

Okay, here's my suggestion for what should be on the website:

Introduction (history and current state of affairs)
 - Links to Forge Threads
 - Mechanics
 - Color Text
 - Artwork (we should start asking for volunteers on this, BTW)
 - Current Version of the Rulebook
 - Previous Versions of the Rulebook
 - Designer's Bios/Rants/Essays (anyone who's posted at least once on any GroupDesign thread can get their own area to talk about what's important to them in game design, or just give folks a feel for who they are -- don't know if this is a good idea, but it seemed interesting to me, sort of a "meet the designers" section)
 - Links to RPG related sites

Take a look, and make some suggestions. We should have a framework in mind before we start the actual nitty-gritty work of putting the website together.

Also, any suggestions for the graphic "feel" of the website? Assuming we can get anything more involved than a very basic, text-based site set up, of course. I'm a fan of the "clean" look -- white or grey backgrounds and 1-3 colors for accent (all in the same palette). The Forge is actually a pretty good example of the kind of design I'm talking about. Anyone else have any ideas?

[Trevis Martin]

Just to readdressin case you are interested in haveing your own sub web at my Golden Chain Press wiki.

it is  password protected and I can create a user group to restict access to your group for further security.  I haven't had any trouble with spammers yet.  

No one will be able to update oversomeone else (the software locks the topic out while you are editing it.)

If you want multiple versions of the rules just make multiple topics with version numbers.

I have both an email notification system and an RSS feed for each web.

You can attach files, i.e. text files or pdf's with the click of a button.  Another possible way to store previous versions or to provide a convieninet download.

wiki markup is easy to learn and to use (there is a help file right under the edit window)  If you are really lazy and use the firefox browser there is a plugin that will give you all the tags on your right click menu and insert them for you.

Anyhow, you guys are welcome.  If this suits you, just let me know.  Check the link in my sig and wander around a little to get an idea of the wiki.

best,

Trevis