A Gloranthafree Wizard

[Der_Renegat]

I tried to make up a variant of the wizard that follows a more traditional rpg-magicuser without the religious aspects of glorantha.

This wizard works mainly with spells or spell-like techniques. I dislike the whole essence plane thing, just like the dependence of a spell to talismani (which smells more like an enchantment to me) - so that got thrown out.
So:

Wizards learn:

Disciplines, a list of thematical related spells
(like ,,air" or ,,moving ways" or ,,enhance self" - a lot like a theistic affinity or a spell list in rolemaster),
from a discipline you can augment or when concentrated: improvise spells (at –15 id guess, a bit more difficult than affinites which are –10)

Spells (like in HQ)

or

use [Grimoire] (like in HQ)


A hero who wants to be a wizard must find a teacher first. He must be able to read and write. If he passes the test, he gets the abilities:
Apprentice of [Master], Magictheory (a substitute for symbolic sight)
and a mystical connection to his master that helps him teaching magic
for 1HP.
He must spend 75% of his time on his studies and doing work for his master.
Whatever magical techniques ([discipline], [spell], use [grimoire]) he learns, he can only augment with it.

A hero who wants to deepen his magic must spend 1HP for concentrating and is then an adept. He must pass some kind of test to be released from apprenticeship.
An adept can use all his wizadry-magic as active abilities but must give up all other magic coming from animism and theism.
An adept can try to make write his personal grimoire: he creates a portal of power and connects the grimoire to himself (a resistance of 10M6), that costs him the appropiate HP and gives him the ability use[Grimoire] at 13.

HP costs:
learn a [spell] at 13/improve a spell +1 – nc 2HP – c 1HP
learn a [discipline] at 13 – nc 6HP – c 3HP
learn a [spell] from an already learned [discipline] – nc 1HP – c 1HP
use [grimoire] – nc 6HP – c 3HP

(nc=non concentrated; c=concentrated)


The secret of wizardry might be the RQ familiar, which works a bit like the animistic fetch – a mystical sidekick.



Id like to hear comments on this.

Christian

[Mike Holmes]

I actually created something remarkably similar for "mysticism" in my game. Right down to using the term disciplines, and the costs, and structures were very close to what you have, sans the grimoires. Maybe no surprise since I play in Shadow World, which was originally for Rolemaster.

I'm not happy with it right now, for mysticism, actually. But it's a model that seems to work more or less. I'm also with you that talismans are not really neccessary. "Mentalism" as I have it, is simply being an adept, but learning all of your spells without grimoires. and you don't have to use a talisman. Put another way, the caster himself is the talisman for all such spells. Yes, this makes it expensive to get breadth for this character type, but know what? That seems to fit just fine. If you check out the mentalism lists in RM, they really suffer from that "more of same" spell in each list. If you just think of each list as one magic ability, and allow a little improvisation, then I think you get the right effect. So, "Unseen Ways" (which in RM has nothing but different versions of invisibility) becames an "Unseen Ways" ability, that includes the basic ability to not be seen, no matter how that's accomplished mentally.

Two comments, on your method here, however. First, I think that having both Disciplines and grimoires is problematic as you have it. Why would I take a grimore when a discipline has the following advantages:
*Spells from Disciplines are cheaper if I'm not concentrated.
*Spells from Disciplines start (if I read it right) at the level of the discipline, instead of 13, as spells from grimoires do.
* Disciplines can be used sans grimoire. I assume that if you have "use Grimoire" that you're required to have the grimouire on hand.
*With a Discipline, I can improvise spells, can't with a grimoire.

So I think you have a balance problem.

Second, what you have is really not all that different from the HQ adept. Again, assume that the school in question says that the caster is the talisman, and that the "essence plane" is just the magic power that's used to cast spells, and that "attuning" to it is just making sure that the spells can get at that power like they should...well, the HQ sorcerer looks pretty much like any other wizard in any other RPG system. Sorcerers being the ones who practice said magics outside of the confines of a religious system.

So, consider going back to just the grimoires perhaps. It's balanced, and really does work for wizards. I've got two of them now in my SW game, and they work just fine. One is something like a "Lay Healer/Necromancer" and another is something like the RM Astrologer (though I have a whole Hybrid cult built around that in addition which another PC belongs to).

Mike

[Der_Renegat]

Why would I take a grimore when a discipline has the following advantages:

A grimoire might be something that you find or buy or borrow.
A bit like magicbooks in cthulhu.
You can study it and get to use all spells in the grimoire with only one ability.
But a grimoire has the disadvantage that you have to carry it with you, is a slow techniques when you need a spell in time and it might get lost stolen or taken away from you!

Spells from Disciplines are cheaper if I'm not concentrated

I dont think they are cheaper. A spell cost you 2HP at 13, while learning a spell from a discipline costs you 1HP at 13 but remember you had to pay 6HP for learning the discipline too!

Spells from Disciplines start (if I read it right) at the level of the discipline, instead of 13, as spells from grimoires do.

No, they dont. This is not like affinities and feats. Spells start at 13 but are a bit cheaper to learn because you already learned a bit of the basics through the discipline. It still costs 2HP (nc) to improve by +1 !

As i see it, a discipline is a broad magical technique to augment. Petty magic if you like. An overview.

A spell is more specific.
You might have learned a spell through common magic and can later use it actively if you concentrate. Or your master doesnt want to teach you more than a single spell because you are an apprentice - maybe he fears you are not talented enough but still wants your money or something like that.

Using a grimoire is just ,,looking" a spell up.

With a Discipline, I can improvise spells, can't with a grimoire.

True. But it might give you more variety.
Use [grimoire] is more like a reciting technique, doing things without understanding whats behind

For instance, you might learn:
Discipline: Unseen Ways (Techniques on being unseen) 17
Spell: Make a Dog Invisible 17
Spell: Fireball 17
use Grimoire: The Book Demonbinding 17

So you can improvise on Unseen Ways at 2
or augment with +2
make a dog invisible at 17
cast a fireball at 17
and use all the demonbinding spells that are in the grimoire as long as you have it at your hand at 17

So, consider going back to just the grimoires perhaps.

I would rather drop the whole grimoire thing if i had to drop anything at all, but i liked the flavour that it adds to the game so much that i tried to integrate it.

any clearer?

Christian

[Mike Holmes]

A grimoire might be something that you find or buy or borrow.
A bit like magicbooks in cthulhu.

Sure. I'm not sure why you mention this. Does it somehow make grimoires easier to use?

You can study it and get to use all spells in the grimoire with only one ability.

Right. Just like you can study a Discipline and get all the spells in that discipline for the same price. Right? Just like a devotee gets all the feats with an Affinity? Or do I miss something. Costwise, these seem to be the same.

But a grimoire has the disadvantage that you have to carry it with you, is a slow techniques when you need a spell in time and it might get lost stolen or taken away from you!

Yes, that was one of my points why nobody would use a grimoire in your system.

Spells from Disciplines are cheaper if I'm not concentrated

No, they dont. This is not like affinities and feats. Spells start at 13 but are a bit cheaper to learn because you already learned a bit of the basics through the discipline.

OK, that wasn't clear.

It still costs 2HP (nc) to improve by +1 !

That contradicts your chart above. It says just 1 for non-concentrated.

You might have learned a spell through common magic and can later use it actively if you concentrate. Or your master doesnt want to teach you more than a single spell because you are an apprentice - maybe he fears you are not talented enough but still wants your money or something like that.

????

No idea what that's all about. You can turn common magic spells into wizardry spells? That's a substantial alteration to the magic system you hadn't mentioned.

With a Discipline, I can improvise spells, can't with a grimoire.

True. But it might give you more variety.
Use [grimoire] is more like a reciting technique, doing things without understanding whats behind

Non-sequitur here. Are you saying that Disciplines do not include spells at all? They just have the breadth of affinities? Then how are the spells that are related to them related? I mean, can you do "make dog invisible" with Unseen Ways, or not? If you can, then it's just like an affinity (except the feats have to start at 13 which is odd), or you can't do it, in which case....what can it do?

I'm afraid I'm still quite confused.

In any case, if grimoires and disciplines are balanced out, then the problem is that you have more versatility as an Adept in this system than, say, Shamans or Devotees, and I think you'll have people flocking to it. Consider that you might want to pare it down just for simplicity's sake, and to make it more equal to the other methods. (Do you intend to use the other methods?)

Mike

[Der_Renegat]

I stand to what i said and will try to explain once more!

A discipline is spelltheory on a specific topic. Something you know.
Unconcentrated you can augment with it only.
Concentrated you can improvise spells from it at –15.
So a discipline is like an affinity with the exception that it doesnt determine in any way the rating of your spells.
This is for the multipurpose wizard.

A spell is something you do - so with a spell you get one specific effect.
You can learn and improve any spell at the usual cost.
You can learn a spell a bit cheaper when it comes from a discipline you already know about.
Improving spells, costs the usual!
This is for the power wizard.

A grimoire is something you use - an easy way to get a lot of spells with the disadvantage that you need time to find the right one.
So a grimoire is not very useful when a quick effect is needed, but very useful whenever you have plenty of time.
This is for the guys who stay at home.

So as a wizard you have the freedom to learn your magic the way you want, with the exception that you sometimes can only learn what your teacher is willing to.
If you have plenty of time and want a lot of spells – you might use grimoires, if you can find, steal, buy or make one....
If you want quick and hard effects – learn spells.
If you want broader magic, choose disciplines.
Or mix the techniques the way it fits your needs. Learn a few combat spells, a discipline for augmenting and get a grimoire, when you are lucky.


also:

Quote:
You might have learned a spell through common magic and can later use it actively if you concentrate. Or your master doesnt want to teach you more than a single spell because you are an apprentice - maybe he fears you are not talented enough but still wants your money or something like that.
????

No idea what that's all about. You can turn common magic spells into wizardry spells? That's a substantial alteration to the magic system you hadn't mentioned.

,,Concentration does not require that a hero give up common magic spells if he concentrates on wizardry, for example, since they originate in the proper otherworld. His religion however, may require him to." (p.108)

Christian

[soru]

Right. Just like you can study a Discipline and get all the spells in that discipline for the same price. Right? Just like a devotee gets all the feats with an Affinity? Or do I miss something. Costwise, these seem to be the same.

As a suggestion, the balancing fact could be that a Grimoire is in some ways more flexible when it comes to improvisation.

If you treat a grimoire as a book (or set of books), produced by a known organisation for a known purpose, then you have a basis for deciding whether it is likely to contain a specific spell (i.e. can improvise a feat from it).

so, if you had:

Book on The Art of Fighting with Magic, Fillipo Vadi, the famous Swabian tutor of duellist mages.

Schoole of the Noble and Worthy Science of Mystic Defense, Professor Joseph Swetnam, University of Molina

Improvised Field Logistics Manual, General Activus of the Vorsainian Empire

Then you could improvise spells like 'deadly strike',  'ward demon', 'butcher herd', or anything else you can justify as likely to have been in those books.

soru

[Der_Renegat]

Nice idea soru!
What kind of situational modifier do you think would be appropiate?
Its -10 non concentrated and -5 concentrated for theistic feats.
Do you think it should be the same for wizards or a bit harder: -15 like i suggested?
I really think it should be a bit tougher. Theistic magic seems more intuitive to me, while wizardry is more "scientific".

Christian

[Mike Holmes]

A discipline is spelltheory on a specific topic. Something you know.
Unconcentrated you can augment with it only.
Concentrated you can improvise spells from it at –15.

Which makes it very little like an Affinity at all. This was where I was confused, I thought that the penalty was for unconcentrated characters only. I thought that when concentrated that you could improvise "included spells" at full level (like a devotee).

With the -15 it's hard to argue that this isn't a huge balancer. That said, interestingly, some people have said that it's actually more efficient to pump lots of points into such a thing (Affinity or Discipline), to overcome the penalty than it is to have the limitations of being a devotee. The same thing might apply with Disciplines and Grimoires. Though perhaps not since you can mix and match (and -15 is a lot more than the -5 for a concentrated initiate improvising).

Might work.

A spell is something you do - so with a spell you get one specific effect.
You can learn and improve any spell at the usual cost.
You can learn a spell a bit cheaper when it comes from a discipline you already know about.
Improving spells, costs the usual!
This is for the power wizard.

Hmm, yes. Think of it this way. Which is a better tactic? Take the spell from a Grimoire and raise it by 2 per until it's at 5W, costing 24, or spend 6 of that on an affinity, and the other 18 to raise up a related ability to 11W? Same points spent, but you get a discipline to to improvise from (at 2 apparently, assuming that they start at 17, for what that's worth), and a much higher ability level. And the discipline can be used for free to buy up other related spells, then.

The break point is at 12 HP - both abilities will be at 19 at this point. Less than that spent, and the grimoire is more efficient. More than that spent and the Discipline is more efficient. So, basically, if you ever intend to have the magic ability at a reasonable level of power (above one mastery), or have two related abilities at higher than 16, or 4 at higher than 14 then you want to buy the discipline and the abilities rather than buy a spell from a Grimoire.

I'm seeing players buying Grimoires and never improving those abilities as individual spells, and buying Disciplines at an unusable level just to make their spells cheaper.

This all assumes schools with equally attractive disciplines and grimoires, but I don't think that's a stretch.

BTW, normally n affinity that's aquired after chargen begins at 13 - not at the level of the keyword. As it stands the Discipline would be completely unuseable for improvising spells at this level - it's merely an augment and an excuse to purchase the related spells cheaply.

Concentration does not require that a hero give up common magic spells if he concentrates on wizardry, for example, since they originate in the proper otherworld. His religion however, may require him to." (p.108)

This is quite true. But this doesn't change them from common magic spells into specialized magic spells. Meaning that they fall under the Common Magic Keyword, uses those rules for costs, and come from common magic sources. My point is that I don't see what the paragraph in question was getting at. You seemed to be implying that somehow the wizard rules that you are proposing have some differing effect on common magic spells or somesuch.

Put another way, if a spell comes from a discipline, and subject to those rules, then it's not common magic. To give a different example, one can get Tradition charms, and one can get common magic charms in Animism. If one becomes concentrated, one can use one's common magic charms as full abilites, but the tradition charms remain augments. Because they're two different things, coming from two different sorts of places, with two sets of rules governing how they work.

So is this a rule change for your game, then? Basically eliminating the difference between common magic spells, and other spells? Or were you saying something I'm not getting?

Mike

[Der_Renegat]

Im not sure i understand everything you say, especially all those calculations and the way you argument from there.
First of all, you will rarely have free choice what you can learn, it will always be limited by your teacher, that is, what he knows and what he is willing to teach you.
Gromires wont be available all the time as wanted or needed and expensive or rare.
Having the ability of use[grimoire] doesnt mean in consequence that you also own one...
So i understand grimoires more as magic items that you might buy for lots of money or find as magical treasure most of the time. Relying on grimoires is also dangerous because they can be stolen or taken away. You might have great power but all it takes is stealing your grimoires and your lost.
If you look at it this way use[grimoire] will be rare for the typical hero.
So everything comes down to spells and disciplines. Disciplines are for augmenting (and improvising) and spells for effects.

So you might argue: why not use the affinity and feat model already proven for theists?
Well i think it doesnt reflect the way i want wizards to be. I dont think that your starting level of your new learned spell should be the rating of your discipline.
Feats and affinites are religious knowledge brought to a magical level.
Wizardry and spells are more like science. Knowing the theory does not mean you are good in practice.

I had also two new ideas that will make disciplines more useful:
1. drop ,,symbolic sight" or as i called it ,,magical theory" alltogether and use your relevant disciplines for that instead. I think that even makes more sense when you use wizards without the essence plane thing.
2. you learn a spell from a discipline at 12, but you can augment it with your discipline. So the minimum you start wih is 13 as usual.

Because they're two different things, coming from two different sorts of places, with two sets of rules governing how they work.

So is this a rule change for your game, then? Basically eliminating the difference between common magic spells, and other spells? Or were you saying something I'm not getting?

Maybe im (mis)interpreting things here a bit different...maybe youre right on that.
Its true, the HQ rules say that the magic comes from different worlds, but then again, my system threw out the essence plane in the first place.
The way i understand it, common magic is a bag of tricks coming from the mundane world. Really you could stop here, but the rules go further and distinguish between spells, charms and feats, which doesnt really matter until  you concentrate your magic and your background allows you to keep your magic.
To me this means: a spell is a spell, wether its comes from the mundane world or the essence plane.
I understand that its maybe relevant in Glorantha, but as i said before i dont care about the essence plane for my variation.

Christian

[Mike Holmes]

I drop my math argument, actually. Nobody ever increases augment only abilities, even on a 1 for 1 basis. So the question is moot.

In fact, I think it'll all work just fine. This whole discussion is just weird. Half the time I think you're trying to argue in my favor. I probably haven't been clear in what I thought the problem was. But I don't think there is one now, so don't worry about it.

Having the ability of use[grimoire] doesnt mean in consequence that you also own one...

Hmm. Isn't that like saying to a player with a warrior character that they can have sword combat, but may not own a sword? I may be wrong, but I think the standard is that you start with a copy of the grimoires you know.

Here's a better question. In Glorantha, a wizard starts with Use Grimoire at keyword level for all grimoires that are listed for the school. What does a character in your world start with standard?

So you might argue: why not use the affinity and feat model already proven for theists?

No, no I would not argue that, nor have I. I've been under the misunderstanding that you were using this model, when you're actually using something substantially different. Which is fine.

I had also two new ideas that will make disciplines more useful:

Nooo, don't do that. I was arguing that disciplines were too powerful, not that they needed help. I think they're fine now. You certainly don't have to make any further adjustments I don't think.

Its true, the HQ rules say that the magic comes from different worlds, but then again, my system threw out the essence plane in the first place.

Well, that doesn't quite answer the question. Will there continue to be a common magic keyword? Will there be spells in it? What will the cost of said be? Where can you get these? Will you as narrator be allowing characters to start (or later get) both the common magic keyword, and a specialized magic keyword (this is optional)? If you allow both, will the player be able to take 5 common magic spells? If so, what cost structure do they have?

Mike