Practices, Traditions and other Animist Terminology

[Peter Nordstrand]

Mike and I began discussing the animist rules in this thread. I don't want to hijack Jesse's Eberron HeroQuest topic, so I started a new topic.


Hi Mike,

You need to read the book before we discuss this further. Especially Spirit Ranks p. 131 (notice the difference between great spirits and majestic spirits), Practices p. 132 ("practice defines the worship of one of more majestic spirits" [my emphasis]), and the example traditions that I mentioned (all core practices provide practice spirits).


Cheers,

[Mike Holmes]

Yep, I had it wrong. Again. I don't have ILH, so could somebody check what the Darjiini core practice is (if it doesn't have one, that could be the source of my confusion). Also, the section entitled "Spiritists and Practices" was, I think, part of my confusion. In that section it implies (note it doesn't make it clear at all) that for a tradition like the Majestic Horses that the spiritist in that tradition would immediately join the Yu-Kargzant practice that was appropriate for him. He'd spend 1 HP, and gets the keyword, I guess, sans "any Magical ability restricted to practitioners." What that is is very unclear, but I think it at least means making fetishes and charms, and might include Spirit Face, and Open Spirit World. Basically what's implied is that the character can gain the appropriate relationships (and access to this sort of charm and fetish, though it's implied elsewhere that all Spiritists have such access).

It also says in this section that "their interaction with the Great Spirit often involves one of the tradition's core practices," implying that there are some traditions in which this is not the case. That doesn't argue in my favor, but it does say that in some cases spiritists are not involved with these practices in this minor way at all. How we're supposed to know when spiritists do or do not get involved with core practices this way I guess has to do with reading the practices involved. That is, I think it's optional for the From Dark Tradition for Spiritists to be "spiritist practitioners" of Five Moon Spirits Practice as it says under the Tradition listing for Core Practice that it's widespread. Whereas the majestic horses tradition implies that everyone joins the practice associated with their age groups.

Anyhow, as long as we're at it, let's look at how we're supposed to apply these things. I honestly think people don't use this stuff, or we'd see more questions about it (I think it's fascinating that the section of the FAQ on www.glorantha.com has absolutely nothing about Animism). For example, let's say I'm a spiritist of the Majestic Horses Tradition. Again, we all know that I get the Tradition Keyword as my Religion Keyword, and then it would seem that I get the Yu-Kargzant keyword for one HP, with only the non-magical stuff. But if I'm also 16 years old, then I get the Dastal keyword as well? I mean the odd thing is that there's this "over-practice" with a Yu-Kargzant keyword. So do I get all three keywords? Does paying the 1HP get me both the "Yu-Kargzant Practice Keyword" (a contradiction in terms since Yu-Kargzant is actually a Great Spirit) and the Dastal Practice Keyword? What about as a practitioner? 3HP for one or both?

The Praxian Tradition is actually less complicated, but no less messed up in that there are apparently no Great Spirits at all in the tradition. The core practices worship the two most important spirits, Waha and Eritha, who apparently are Majestic Spirits.

And the last example is the From Dark Tradition which, as I recently discussed, we can't know how to apply really until ILH2 comes out (at which point we can only hope that it'll be all cleared up - is there some clarification to be found in ILH that I missed?). The problem there is: let's take an example of a Tarshite character who wants to go animist. Well, he takes the religion keyword "Lunar Way" no? Well, then does he also take the From Dark Tradition keyword? Is that "free" to a starting character in Tarsh? Or do they only get one religion keyword? Do they get to choose? If they get both, do theists get the religion keyword of the pantheon from which the diety that they worship as part of the Lunar Way comes from?

Then there's the whole confusion about Kolat. We can only speculate on how that'll be handled at this point as part of the larger Heortling religion (or not as the case might be).

What we don't have here is a single simple example that follows the layout implied by the section on Animism. I've never seen a sample character written up that would imply the stuff about the core practices. The nominally animist character example Galan avoids all of that detail (though somehow he's given a Spirit Ally). The sample Grazer Cavalryman on the web site is a practitioner of Jardan, so that tells us nothing in particular. The Bison Person is a practitioner of Eritha (I think the implication with these might be that everyone is an actual practitioner, but is that ever stated explicitly for either Tradition?). The Tarshite Petty Noble uses only common magic - in fact I've never seen any write-ups of characters from the Lunar Empire except Wesley's here: http://www.celtic-webs.com/glorantha/resources/characters/berkut.html And apparently he interpreted it the way that I did (unless Verondum is a core practice).

Another thing about all of this that disturbs me is that it seems that you can only be a member of one practice at the time that a character starts (given that you can only have one Magic Keyword other than Common Magic if allowed). So I guess that means that all Grazers practitioners must start with one of the two (well, four) core practices? The Bison men with two? And every From Dark practitioner can only be from the Five Moons Practice to start? Theists can be from any cult in the pantheon, but animists have to be linked to just one sort of magic to start? To say nothing of shamans who we'll excuse because they can't be "starting characters" after all.

Anyhow, I've put a lot of thought into this, and none of it is what I'd call crystal clear. What I get in terms of clarifications is that every religion has it's variations from the common patterns. The problem with this is that it makes a shambles of the common patterns - to the point where it gets so that it's almost not worth having the common patterns of animism, theism, etc, listed. It might actually have been much more clear to have all of the rules of how to handle each religion included in each religion's write up.

I'm all for the variety, as long as I can understand how to use it. But being told to just wing it to make it work, doesn't make me feel as though I'm getting much from the book. Sorry, but this has been a long and frustrating trying to understand how all of this works. Things are just so non-standard, that I find it impossible to remember the general rules over time. Just when I think I have one method of magic tied down, I move over to another, and then find that I've lost how to do the other forms.

Arrgh. Off now to put a "Core Practice" listing on all eight of my homebrewed animist traditions.

Mike

[James Holloway]

Yep, I had it wrong. Again. I don't have ILH, so could somebody check what the Darjiini core practice is (if it doesn't have one, that could be the source of my confusion).

Darjiin doesn't have a practice labeled as a "core practice." This may mean that it has no "core practice," or that it has nine, which are listed on ILH1 p. 33. It also has two shamanic practices.

[Mike Holmes]

I think it means that it has none - Occam would agree, I think.

I'm starting to remember how I got to the erroneous position that I had. I asked the Issiaires folk how to handle this ommission when making a Darjiini character (and note that I'd neither made nor seen any other animism characters before that) - I mean by the letter of the law, nobody can be a Practitioner in the Darjiini tradition, because there's no Core Practice to belong to. So the response that I got was that the religion keyword counted as the core practice for this purpose. That is, one can go from being a Spiritist in the SurEnslib Tradition to being a practitioner of any practice, because the "core" requirement is being met by the religion keyword.

Note that having them all be Core, James, would entail two problems. First, Core Practices are supposed to somehow be related to the Great Spirits somehow - though they do have what looks like Majestic Spirit intercessors or something. So all SurEnslib Majestic Spirits could be intercessors like this I suppose, but the text doesn't support it at all. Worse, however, that would mean that Darjiini could only join one practice in their tradition, since you can only be in one Core Practice. I think that the ruling of the religion keyword counting as the Core Practice is to avoid this, and make the SurEnslib Tradition the "open" sort of tradition that I think is implied.

Anyhow, I can't remember who it is who gave me this impression (I'm thinking Stephen or Rory), but that's where the trouble started with my understanding.

I think this makes it an exception to the rules, too; I'm not saying that it's the template from which to build all animist religions or anything. But, again, just an example of how there are no standard examples to work off of. From this example, I started thinking that this could happen, and then that it was the standard for how it happens (which is incorrect, I admit).

Thanks, James, for the lookup,
Mike

[Der_Renegat]

I find all the example practices in the book confusing too.
(Same with the common magic religions.)
They are all quite bizarre to me and dont help much, to understand the whole concept really.
I would like to see one example thats more ,,basic", that helps designing your own animist religions. A blueprint.

The basic principle seems to be: there is a great spirit who is central to the people and thus the tradition, who worship it. It seems most of the time it is, in some way, the creator of its people and/or the world. It provides magic that helps its people to stay alive or live their daily life.

The practice is a specialised religion that worships a less powerful ,,god-like" spirit and lets you interact on a more personal level. So this is more an aspect of the great spirits cosmology.

There was once this dicussion on the yahoo group where i asked Greg why spirits help and why they allow to be trapped in a charm. (The answers are in the FAQ now)
I remember he answered: a spirit wants to be part of the world. Also it wants to be what it is (burning for a fire spirit for example).
I must say i still dislike this whole trapping concept for charms, because i think the spirits want you to behave in their way and by doing this you are so atuned to life that you benefit from it, thats how i see how a charm works. Maybe it doesnt change much what the rules do, but i see a difference in what traditions are.
I think its all about living the right way and not trapping a spirit in an object.

The whole concept every tradition has a cosmology behind it, that is, technically, very much like the theist model, disturbs me.
I can think of a lot of cultures that have practices as their religion alone, without any traditions. Or am i wrong?

Not sure if this of any help, just some thoughts.

Christian

[Mike Holmes]

I dunno:

Christian: Why do you trap spirits?

Greg: You don't, you give them a conduit to be what they are where they want to be, after making friends with them.

Christian: So why do you have to trap them?

I think that it's telling that you "trap" spirits by making friends with them. They're not trapped, they come along with you for the ride willingly if they like you. Like you say, you have to act right for them to like you, however. Hence why that's in the contest.

I think you may just be having a problem with perspective on this one.

So I don't have a problem with that. Also, I don't think it's very like a theist cosmology at all. You simply don't get magic from Great Spirits, for example. In any case, you're arguing with an actual Shaman in Greg, so I trust his vision on this.

Anyhow, I'm not surprised if it seems odd to you, again I agree that it's hard to get the right vision of what's supposed to happen from the text.

Mike

[Peter Nordstrand]

Hi Mike,

Your post contains material for a dozen separate threads. It all connects, but it takes some time and energy to respond to. I'll try not to ignore or forget some important point. Essentially, you are getting my understanding of the rules, below. Hope it helps.

Darjiini Core Practice
I agree that it is reasonable to assume that the SurEnslib Tradition of the Darjiini have no core practice.

Spiritists and Practices
A spiritist of the Majestic Horses Tradition joining the Yu-Kargzant Practice/Jardan the Warrior:

He spends 1 hero point and gets one practice spirit charm for free. He gets no other abilities for free. He has access only to the magic normally available to spiritists, i.e. charms only. He may spend hero points to learn and improve Yu-Kargzant Practice Knowledge and Follower of Jardan. I assume that he is allowed to learn the other mundane abilities listed for the practice as well.

I don't think that the section "Spiritists and Practices" implies anything about whether a spiritist would join a practice or not. All it says is that he is allowed to do so. However, I agree that a player hero would be stupid not to, if he is at all interested in gaining access to practice charms. You are probably right in assuming that there is no general standard for this; how common spiritist members of practices are varies by culture and religion. (My own guess is that most people of the Majestic Horse Tradition are practitioners, just like most Heortlings are initiates.)

Note 1: The magic available to practitioners is listed on p. 136: "Open Spirit World, Practice Spirits and Fetishes, Spirit Ally, Spirit Face, Practice Secret."

Note 2: You cannot buy keywords for hero points (ignore advanced exerience for now), only abilities, so he does not "get the keyword".

Mike's Example 1: Majestic Horses Tradition

See note 2, above regarding buying keywords. Other than that I think that your interpretation is the only reasonable one:

Avarkorda the Young Spiritist wants to become a spiritist member of Yu-Kargzant. He spends 1 hero point. This means that he has joined the Dastal sub-practice. He gets one practice spirit charm for free. He may pick one charm from among the abilities listed with Fire spirits, Stallion spirits, Hunting spirits, and Rider spirits. I.e. both the Dastal keyword and the general Yu-Kargzant keywords apply. The same goes for practitioners.

Mike's Example 2: Praxian Tradition

The great spirit of the tradition is Genert, who was killed during the Gods War. Of course Waha and Eiritha are majestic spirits. It all seems pretty straightforward to me.

Mike's Example 3: From Dark Tradition

I agree that this is very badly and confusingly presented. Here's how I understand it.

The religion kewords listed in the Homelands are what you get at the lowest level of devotion. These are the religion keywords.

Spiritists get a tradition keyword.
Communal worshippers get a pantheon keyword.
Lay members get a church keyword.[/list:u]

At higher levels of devotions you gain access to additional keywords.

Practitioners get a practice keyword.Initiates get a deity keyword.
Liturgists gain access to the scriptures in the church keyword.
Orderlies get a order keyword.[/list:u]

The thing is that the different magic systems present the same information in different ways. Animist traditions and wizardous churces are listed both in homeland descriptions and in the sample cults sections of their chapters. If theist religions had followed the same mold, the Sample Deities section would have been organized like this:

Solar Pantheon
  Buserian
  Erissa
  Gerendeth
  Mercario
  Navestos the Harvester

Earth Pantheon
  Argan Argar
  Skovara

Storm Pantheon
  Destor
  Odayla

etc, etc.

I'm sure this is how you see it as well, I just want to check.

As a consequence, there seem to be several ways to solve this problem. The Tarshite from your example could get the From Dark Tradition keyword instead of, not in addition to, the Lunar Religion Keyword. Or perhaps she should get both. I don't know. In my game, I would allow both. I certainly hope that ILH2 clears this mess up. I've been told that it includes a special chapter on Lunar magic.

----

I must stop now. I have some thoughts on the rest of your post as well, but this is a start.

All the best,

[Mike Holmes]

Darjiini Core Practice
I agree that it is reasonable to assume that the SurEnslib Tradition of the Darjiini have no core practice.

And that the general rule about needing to be a practitioner of the core practice is suspended for this religion, correct?

Spiritists and Practices
A spiritist of the Majestic Horses Tradition joining the Yu-Kargzant Practice/Jardan the Warrior:

He spends 1 hero point and gets one practice spirit charm for free. He gets no other abilities for free. He has access only to the magic normally available to spiritists, i.e. charms only. He may spend hero points to learn and improve Yu-Kargzant Practice Knowledge and Follower of Jardan. I assume that he is allowed to learn the other mundane abilities listed for the practice as well.

What's this based on? I don't doubt you, I just have no idea where you're getting this from. Are you talking about joining in play, and the rules for joining a practice? Or is this based on the standard chargen rules somehow? Or something else?

I don't think that the section "Spiritists and Practices" implies anything about whether a spiritist would join a practice or not. All it says is that he is allowed to do so. However, I agree that a player hero would be stupid not to, if he is at all interested in gaining access to practice charms. You are probably right in assuming that there is no general standard for this; how common spiritist members of practices are varies by culture and religion. (My own guess is that most people of the Majestic Horse Tradition are practitioners, just like most Heortlings are initiates.)

Well, it definitely says that they join the practices, and given that the spiritists and practices thing seems sorta non-standard in some ways, I'd guess as you have that they are actually practitioners. I'm just not sure why the option exists, then. I mean, it sounds like there must be some real world precedent to this happening in animist religions, and so it got included.

Note 1: The magic available to practitioners is listed on p. 136: "Open Spirit World, Practice Spirits and Fetishes, Spirit Ally, Spirit Face, Practice Secret."

Don't have book with - are these listed under magic abilities? Or are they listed as skills? I think something like Open Spirit World or Spirit Face sorta blurs the lines.

Note 2: You cannot buy keywords for hero points (ignore advanced exerience for now), only abilities, so he does not "get the keyword".

I always make this terminological mistake (because I allow aquisition of keywords in my game in conjunction with the Saga System - I have to consider advanced experience as I use it in my games). But what I mean is paying the points to join the organization in question. Or, in some cases, taking the keyword to start the game.

Avarkorda the Young Spiritist wants to become a spiritist member of Yu-Kargzant. He spends 1 hero point. This means that he has joined the Dastal sub-practice. He gets one practice spirit charm for free. He may pick one charm from among the abilities listed with Fire spirits, Stallion spirits, Hunting spirits, and Rider spirits. I.e. both the Dastal keyword and the general Yu-Kargzant keywords apply. The same goes for practitioners.

"Sub-practice" is a term that makes sense to describe these things, but is it made up, or in the text somewhere? But, otherwise, you're saying he can select abilities from either keyword. Meaning that he's a member of both organizations at least nominally? What about the appropriate relationships? I suppose that he'll have worship Yu-Kargzant from the religion keyword...hmmm.

But what about starting characters? They get all the abilities from both the practice and sub-practice, I guess? Including one fetish that contains one of each practice spirit (per p.17?).

Mike's Example 2: Praxian Tradition

The great spirit of the tradition is Genert, who was killed during the Gods War. Of course Waha and Eiritha are majestic spirits. It all seems pretty straightforward to me.

Who's Genert? More to the point, fine, the Great Spirit is dead, and not worshipped. That doesn't make it straightforward at all - you end up worshipping a majestic spirit in the religion keyword instead of a great spirit. With no great spirit to guide them, the whole thing feels a lot like a religion cobbled together out of worshipping a number of independent spirits sans an overall tradition. If it had been explained like this, that would make sense.

Mike's Example 3: From Dark Tradition

I agree that this is very badly and confusingly presented. Here's how I understand it.

The religion kewords listed in the Homelands are what you get at the lowest level of devotion. These are the religion keywords.

Spiritists get a tradition keyword.
Communal worshippers get a pantheon keyword.
Lay members get a church keyword.[/list:u]

Sounds consistent, but what do you base that on? Just the only reasonable way to go? What about the Tarshite Lunar Way religion?

As I understand it, what's actually going on is that this is something like a "fourth otherworld" in effect - the Lunar Otherworld. Meaning, I think that all bets are off, and that we're not going to understand it until ILH2 comes out, as you mention.

The thing is that the different magic systems present the same information in different ways. Animist traditions and wizardous churces are listed both in homeland descriptions and in the sample cults sections of their chapters.

They're listed in the sample cults sections, but not in the homelands that I've seen - though I could be overlooking it somehow. The way the information is presented, the implication in the homelands is that you would take the homeland religion, and then be able to take any of the practices, initiations, orders, or schools that you like.

If theist religions had followed the same mold, the Sample Deities section would have been organized like this:

Not sure what you're getting at with the example.

I'm sure this is how you see it as well, I just want to check.

Well, to be clear, I don't "see it" at all. I'm just confused at this point by the whole Lunar religion.

And, again, I hope nobody gets me wrong - I like all of the presented religions. My problem with the animist ones are that none of them seem to conform to the notes in the animism chapter. I should look again at the text - what I hope to find there somewhere is something that says that all of the religion notes are generalities meant to give you an idea of the commonalities about that sort of religion, and that most religions will have some exception to how these rules work. Perhaps I've simply been reading the magic sections too literally.

Mike

[Bryan_T]

I think things get much simpler if you view "core practice" as more of a handy concept than as a rule, or think of everyone belonging to it as sort of an Orlanthi 'all,' or something like that.

Clearly many traditions have standard practices that "everyone" joins (or progresses through), just as "all" heortlings worship Orlanth and Ernalda.

But I can't help but think that the exceptions are numerous enough that it is probably easier to let the requirements of the practices stand on their own.

All young male grazers join Dastal the Hunter--except those few who join Denibitos (shamanic practice) or Folorene (oddballs practice, and a great favorite of mine).

All Darjinni who join a practice join one of the Darjinni practices (except for these days do some of them join a lunar practice?)

All praxians join Waha or Eiritha, even those becoming shamans.

I think the concept of a core practice just confuses things more than it simplifies.

Of course, even dumping the core practices idea doesn't clarify, for the grazers, the La-Ungariant or Yu-Kargzant + age/rank practice situation--do most grazers actually belong to two practices?

--Bryan

[Mike Holmes]

Clearly many traditions have standard practices that "everyone" joins (or progresses through), just as "all" heortlings worship Orlanth and Ernalda.

Not quite parallel here. Orlanth and Ernalda are worshipped as part of the "Worship Storm Pantheon" just as SurEnslib, is worshipped as part of that tradition's religion keyword. There are no examples from the Storm Pantheon where a character has to worship X first, past the general requirements of belonging to the religion. Well, other than the idea of sub-cults, which is, in fact, handled by rule.

But I can't help but think that the exceptions are numerous enough that it is probably easier to let the requirements of the practices stand on their own.

At this point I have to agree, I think it would have been somewhat less confusing. The problem with having a general rule is you look for how it should apply to the examples, and when it doesn't, you may make incorrect assumptions (I think I have at times). If these "rules" are listed locally to the religion, then there's no dissonance to pick up in terms of exceptions.

At this point what fascniates me more is the question of what a "typical" animist religion looks like. Basically, should I start with the assumption of core practices that seem like what the Animism chapter implies? Or should I assume that the religions are so disparate that they'll always have some exception to these rules? The samples seem to say so, but, then, they're just samples.

Of course, even dumping the core practices idea doesn't clarify, for the grazers, the La-Ungariant or Yu-Kargzant + age/rank practice situation--do most grazers actually belong to two practices?

Is it really two practices, too? Or is it a complicated description of a multi-faceted practice that incorporates more than one keyword (modular)? Like how homelands include religion keywords. I love modularity (part of why I love HQ), but it's just not clear that this is the case.

Mike