Discovering Design Goals (Long)

[TracerFox]

Okay folks. I was on IRC last night, and someone over on the Indie RPG
channel pointed me to a post over on the forge:
http://indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=1896
Basicly the post suggests that if you're having trouble getting system,
setting, and design goals to mesh up, that you start out by writing a
'screenplay' script of what your ideal gameplay session for your game might
run like.

This script would have all the in and out of character dialogue and actions,
but would not make any detailed mention of actual system mechanics. I
suggest you take a look at the thread for a more clear understanding of the
method.

Anyways, I have just finished such a script for what I envision a possible
session of Shattered Prism: Freelancers running like.

Look this over, and please, send me back any questions, comments, critiques
you have to share. In addition, I'd like to perform an experiment. Read the thread and see what the poster did with his script. He looked it over and extracted certain design goals from the gameplay session (simulated though it was).

I'd like you to do the same here. Read this and then tell me what you come up with. What do you think is important? What design goals would you come out with after reading this?


******

Player 1: Alex
Character: Carak
Species: Sunari
Occupation: Battle-Mage


Player 2: Benn
Character: Shyyn-Tal
Species: Wolven
Occupation: Soldier


Player 3: Cass
Character: Taliasha
Species: Khyrolii - Cyborg
Occupation: Infiltrator


Player 4: David
Character: Vek
Species: Dak Leriti
Occupation: Grid-Runner


Mission: The Sky is Falling
   Briefing: A group of terrorists have captured the groundside end of an orbital elevator and taken an unknown number of hostages from one of the cars. They claim to have explosives in place to destroy the elevator if their demands are not met within 48 hours. They have demanded that the island of Chakiruga, currently a maximum security prisoner for political prisoners, be turned over to their forces and be declared a soverign state. There are 10 hours remaining before the deadline. E-SWAT is under scrutiny from the media and several officials, so want to keep the operation low-key and so have hired your team to resolve the situation within 5 hours before E-SWAT takes over.
   Intel: Enemy numbers and disposition are unknown, but it is assumed there is at least one Grid-Runner working with or for them, because Grid surveilance has failed. The facility is an eight story cargo center for loading freight cars on the elevator, with a passenger terminal on the ninth level, and a control center on the tenth off to the side of the cables. It is assumed that the enemy controls the passenger station and control center. No enemy resistance has been met until E-SWAT forces attempted to move from the eighth to the ninth level. Only one access elevator and two stairways allow access to level nine from level eight. Another access is by way of passenger tram directly into the passenger terminal, and though the tram has been destroyed, there is now an opening in the outer wall gaurded by sniper activity.
   Objectives: Neutralize the terrorists and safely rescue as many hostages as possible. Ensuring the safety of the elevator is of primary importance however. Mission failure if objective is not met within a 5 hour deadline, after which E-SWAT will move in themselves.
   Assets: Due to the time-critical nature of the mission, only basic military assets are available. Due to the restriction on collateral damage, no heavy ordinance will be allowed.

   GM Intel: There are 27 hostages, all held within the elevator's car in the central platform. There are 13 terrorists, consisting of one Grid-Runner, three combat cyborgs, one battle mage (Solarian), five soldier mercs, one combat TK, and two PA troopers. All are well armed, but poorly organized. The leader is the combat TK, and if he falls the mercs might jump ship since he was their only contact to get paid. The remaining terrorists are fanatics and will fight to the death. The bombs are placed against the cable supports at the base of the cargo facility and will destroy the entire structure. The bombs have been hidden from detection by the battle mage. The two PA suits were stolen from an E-SWAT armory and still have E-SWAT command codes if they can be jacked into, but the remote Grid links have been disabled. One of the hostages is a media news celebrity and if she survives will end up writing a piece on the 'heroes' of the hour, the PCs. In addition, another hostage is on the board of directors for an influencial corporation in the City and will likely reward the PCs if he can be rescued safely. If either influencial PC is harmed or killed, the public reaction will turn out badly for the PCs. As an added twist, one of the PA pilots is the brother of an E-SWAT officer stationed at the armory the two suits were stolen from a week ago; if the pilot is captured alive, he will be able to reveal a string of corrupt E-SWAT officers at that armory (his brother is not one of them) which have been supplying these radicals with weaponry for months. If captured alive, the leader of the group can lead officials to another five cells of their organization, which will turn up evidence that they are backed by the Church of Norah Chugrah.


Pre-Mission Interlude:

GM: You are in a small briefing room in an E-SWAT mobile command, about a kilometer from the Chadeski orbital elevator. You were only given brief information about the mission from your Guild contact, something about a hostage rescue mission. A middle-aged Solarian wearing an E-SWAT Captain's uniform walks into the room and sits down at the head of the table. "Thank you for coming. My name is Captain Jarvis and I apologize that we were not able to brief you before coming, but unfortunately the decision to call in a Freelancer team was last-minute, and time is running out for the mission."

Benn: I shift a little uncomfortably in the seat and get right to the point, "Allright. We're here and we're getting paid. So why don't you skip the apologies and tell us what we need to do?"

Alex & Cass: Both nod in agreement.

GM: "Yes, well. Approximately forty to forty-five hours ago a team of political terrorists calling themselves 'The Voice of Progress' used force to enter and control the passenger terminal in the Chadeski orbital elevator. At the time a passenger car was just returning from the docking facility in orbit carrying an unknown number of civillian passengers. After their initial assault, during which we assume the entire security staff were killed or captured, the terrorists detonated explosives which destroyed the tram line into the terminal. Thirty-eight hours ago these same terrorists sent a message via Data-Grid courier to E-SWAT command stating they were in control of the elevator facility. They also stated they had placed explosives with intent to destroy the anchor for the orbital tether itself. If their demands were not met within 48 hours the explosives would be detonated and the elevator would be destroyed. They also stated that if any attempt was made at rescue, the hostages would be executed."

Cass: "So why are we here? Isn't this E-SWAT's job to take care of things like this?" My tail snapping behind me for emphisis.

GM: Jarvis coughs nervously and looks back up from the table. "Recently there have been several high-profile hostage incidents within the city. During the rescue operations, there were some casualties among the hostages. One of which was the wife of an influencial media corporation CEO with ties to the City Council. Since this E-SWAT has been under significant scrutiny, and we are being blamed for the deaths. We would like to avoid another public incident if this ends up badly."

Benn: I laugh gruffly, "I get it. So we get to go in first, and if we screw up you get to blame us and the Guild. You just want to keep your own hands clean... Bloody politics again. Tali, what'd I tell you? We allways end up getting the political messes."

Cass: "Yeah yeah Shyyn. Next time you can pick the missions."

GM: Jarvis coughs again and stands up to turn on a monitor on the back wall. An image of the elevator facility comes up. "The facility itself consists of eight levels of cargo transfer areas, where the elevator's freight cars load and unload cargo going to and from the skyhook facility up in orbit. We've allready secured these areas up to level eight. However we encountered resistance, we believe sentry guns, in the service stairwells between level eight and level nine. The service elevator has been rigged with what we believe are motion activated anti-personell mines."

GM: Another image comes up showing the ninth level, a large plaza for the passenger platform, with the elevator on one side and the tram to the outside on the other. "We believe the bulk of the enemy to be concentrated here. We have confirmed sniper activity at the opening where the tramline entered the facility. Above the platform is another level containing the control center for the entire elevator facility. It is unknown if the enemy has taken control of these areas, but we have assumed this to be the case."

GM: Jarvis turns off the screen and turns back to you. "Unfortunately we have no information as to the number and exact disposition of the enemy forces, but we estimate between ten and twenty individuals. Furthermore, we have been unable to detect the presence of explosives in the rest of the facility, so either there are none, they're somewhere in level nine, or else there are no bombs. Your objectives are simple. First, you are to neutralize the terrorists in whatever way you see fit, with lethal force authorized if necessary. Second, you are to ensure that no significant damage is sustained by the elevator mechanisms themselves. Finally, you are to ensure the safe rescue of as many hostages as possible. Though I hate to say it, the rescue of the hostages is not as important as ensuring the safety of the elevator. If that tether comes down, far more than those hostages will die in the damage."

GM: Jarvis sighs and sits back down for a moment, then resumes, "You have only five hours to complete this mission. Any questions?"

David: "Since collateral damage is to be avoided, I assume there will be limits on ordinance?"

GM: Jarvis nods slowly, "Yes I'm afraid so. No heavy weapons will be permitted in this mission. Although class C powered armor with only small arms will be permitted."

Benn: Snorts and shakes his head. "Guess I'll have to leave Matilda behind."

Alex: I finally look over to Shyyn and chuckle. "You had to name all your big toys didn't you? I have no idea what you seem to love about those old Solarian wilderness vids."

Benn: "Hey! At least I know how to relax. All you ever do is pour over those old books of yours."

Cass: "Settle down the both of you! We've got a mission here. Jarvis! I assume that E-SWAT is providing additional gear if we need it?" I try to lean on his mind a little to get him to accept.

GM: Jarvis seems about to protest, but after a very brief pause, finally nods. "Very well. But only from what we have on-site here. You only have five hours to get this taken care of."

Cass: I nod and smile warmly, or at least as warmly as a Khyrolii can. "Thank you Captain. I think we can handle things from here."

David: I get up and move over to the data-terminal to study the blueprints of the facility. "There appear to be only three viable options for a covert insertion. The first is by way of the hole where the tram was. The second is via the service elevator shaft, assuming we can manuver around the mines. Finally we may be able to enter through an access hatch on the roof of the control terminal. None are ideal, and each has their risks."

Alex: I stand up and move over to join Vek. "Hmmmm. Let me see that... Well my vote is for the air-drop. I think I could cloak us on our way in, keep them from seeing us until we're right in their face."

Benn: Moves over to look at the city layout nearby. "Yeah, that could work. Though do we want to get in quietly, or just knock on the front door?"

Cass: Sighs and glares at Shyyn, "Don't you even know the meaning of subtle? There could be as many as twenty of those clowns in there! If we go in guns blazing, who knows how many hostages could be killed... Not to mention our own hides!"

Benn: I sigh and grumble, moving away and muttering something about how I never get to have any fun.

All: (Chuckles all around)

David: "It would seem the best course of action is for Taliasha to enter first using her shift suit and scout the control center. If it's clear the rest of us can move in. If not, then she should be able to take care of the gaurds."

Cass: I grin, bearing my fangs and flick out two of my cyber-talons. "Sounds good to me. I prefer the light touch anyways."

Alex: "Well, why don't we go see what E-SWAT toys we can score for this gig?"

GM: So, are you done with the briefing?

All: Yep!

GM: Well then. Here's a list of what the E-SWAT has on hand. Go ahead and gear up, then this looks like a good place to take a break.

(Next issue, the actual mission itself)


Mission:

GM: Okay. So you have a plan to get into the facility. How do you carry it out?

Cass: We're flying overhead using an E-SWAT powered armor transport chopper. Carak is casting an invisibility spell on the chopper to keep anyone in the control center from spotting us. An E-SWAT pilot will stay with the chopper when we bail out using mono-lines.

GM: Okay then. Alex, go ahead and cast the spell.

Alex: (Alex rolls and succeeds) Okay, from the outside the chopper should be invisible to anyone but our team.

David: I'm gonna jack into the Grid, see what kind of digital defenses they have set up while we fly there.

GM: Allright. When you first approach the facility's Grid presence, you notice that all the public access nodes have been corrupted, closing them off.

David: Allright, I'm going to look for any maintanence nodes or backdoors into the system. Hopefully they left something open. (Makes another roll and fails.) Well, it doesn't look like there's any easy way in, so I'll try jacking in physically once we're inside.

GM: Okay. After a short flight you are hovering over the access hatch on the roof.

Cass: I'm going down first, with my shift suit on. I'm going to check the hatch for any kind of alarm.

GM: There doesn't appear to be an alarm on the hatch itself.

Cass: Okay. Opening the hatch and heading inside. I'm checking the area with my thermal and sonic detection implants. Are there any gaurds in the immediate area?

GM: Inside the hatch is what appears to be a service corridor, and might even be between the walls of the working areas. There is a short corridor which makes a turn to the left. Your implants don't pick up and heat sources or sounds in the area.

Cass: Over the comm, "Allright, landing site looks clear. No alarms either. They might not even know about this hatchway."

David: I'll go down next.

Alex: I'll bring up the rear, then tell the pilot to move off before the spell wears out.

GM: Okay. You're all down in the accessway, with the faint sound of the transport dying off in the distance.

Cass: I'll go ahead down the corridor, keeping my dection implants active. The rest of you stay here for now.

Rest: They each nod.

Cass: Heading around the corner...

GM: Another short passageway, ending in what looks like a hatchway in the wall, almost starship style.

Cass: I go check it out. Is it locked? Anything on the other side show up?

GM: It doesn't look like it's locked, but when you turn the handle and push gently, it doesn't budge. Also nothing shows up on thermal, but you can make out footsteps using your sonic implant.

Cass: Just the one? Can I get an idea of where we are in the building. I did download the schematics for the facility.

GM: Yes. The accessway shows up on the blueprints as leading to the roof. You can't tell why the door won't budge though. The footsteps are coming from the main control room on the other side of the door. Seems like someone pacing back and forth in the room.

Cass: I'm gonna use my cybercomm to call the others forwards. Then I'll check the door to see if it's welded.

GM: (Scratches out his note about equipment on the other side of the door blocking it) What do you know, there does seem to be a quick weld along the edge. Seems pretty recent.

Benn: Damn. Guess they do know about this one. David, can you try jacking in again. Maybe they've got a local remote terminal.

David: Worth a shot. I'm going to scan for any broadcast terminals inside the building. If I can I'll jack in.

GM: You manage to find one for the security system still broadcasting, but not on the usual frequencies. You jack in and barely avoid the attack of a watchdog program.

David: I'll use my Decoy and Mask Trace programs to trick the watchdog into thinking it got me and booted me out. Then use Analyze to find out if it's native or if someone put it there.

GM: The trick works and the program goes back to it's rounds. The codeline doesn't look like the rest of the Environment, so it's probably not native.

David: Okay. Is there a glassroom environment available.

GM: Yes, there is a basic one and it looks like only the watchdog was gaurding it. Do you load it up?

David: Yes, then I'm gonna wait here unless they need me.

Benn: (shakes his head) I think we can handle it without your tin can.

David: Okay. I'm gonna load into the glassroom.

GM: You load the environment and your Avatar ends up loaded into the control room. There's two security cameras in the room, showing that there is an armored Solarian pacing back and forth, looking out the windows from time to time.

David: Okay. I'll tell the others over the comm. I'm going to explore the rest of the level, with my Shield and Stealth programs on just in case. Are there any other enemies on this level?

GM: (Checks where he put everyone) As you walk from room to room you don't find anyone else until you get to the stairwell leading back downstairs. There's one more armored Solarian at the top of the stairs.

Alex: What're they armed with?

GM: Looks like gauss rifles.

David: Okay. I'm going back to the control room, and relay what I saw to everyone else. Where's the hatch into the control room?

GM: The blueprints show the hatch along one of the back walls. The gaurd doesn't seem to be looking that way, except when he turns around on each end of his pacing.

Cass: Guess we can't get in without him spotting us?

David: Probably not.

Alex: Well, if Vek can display what he's seeing with his holo-projector, I might be able to hit him with a sleep spell.

GM: A long-shot, targeting something you can't physically see. But go ahead.

Alex: Okay. I'll try it then.

GM: Not bad. David, you see the gaurd pause and blink, then suddenly slump to the floor unconcious.

Cass: Okay. I'm gonna use my cyber-talons to cut through the weld. David, check on the other gaurd and let us know if he's coming.

David: (Looks at the GM, who nods)

GM: You manage to cut through the welds in the door and slowly open it. There is some soft creaking, but it doesn't look like the other gaurd noticed.

Cass: Okay. I'll go in first, and use my claws to make sure the gaurd in here doesn't wake up. Snikt!

Benn: And here I thought I was the cold-blooded one.

GM: Since he's still out cold, he goes out without even a moan. Though your methods do end up making a mess on the floor. There's a small pool of blood that's growing around the corpse.

Benn: I'll move through and pull the body back into the accessway. Then I'll take his gun. (GM nods)

Alex: I'll move into the control room as well.

Cass: I'm gonna sneak up on the other gaurd, try and take him by snapping the neck this time.

GM: You manage to sneak up behind him, and a moment later he slumps in your grip, dead.

Cass: Didn't even see me coming. Anything down at the bottom of the stairs?

Benn: Looks like I'm on cleanup. I'll join Tali and drag the other body back to the first.

GM: You don't see anything downstairs, but you do hear some conversations. Too distorted from echos to make out.

Cass: I'll try to use my audio-amp, maybe my filter can work on it?

GM: You activate the implants, then your system gives you an energy warning. You've got too much drain for the auto-charge and are draining battery power.

Cass: Damn. Forgot about that. Okay. I'll turn off the thermal for now.

GM: Okay. That puts it just barely below the redline. You catch a bit of the conversation between two gaurds somewhere downstairs. Seems they're talking about this contract they took, and are they sure that they're gonna get paid. Looks like one of them is sure E-SWAT is going to come busting in and blow them all away.

Benn: (Grins and chuckles) Not E-SWAT, us. Even worse for them.

GM: You catch another piece of the conversation. One of them talking about some E-SWAT PA suits the fanatics stole from E-SWAT.

David: They've got E-SWAT PA suits?!

Benn: Ummm, crap. We didn't bring any heavy weapons.

Cass: Okay. Enough eavesdropping. I'll turn off everything but the sonic detection and the shift suit. Then I'll head downstairs.

David: I'm gonna head down too in the glassroom. Are there any security terminals down there?

GM: Yes. The stairway leads out into another short corridor, then a double set of sliding doors. Almost like an airlock, or a security checkpoint.

David: I'll check the security locks. Can I crack them?

Cass: I'll move up to the doors and wait for Vek to work his magic. "Vek. Can you do something about these doors?"

David: "Working on them now. One moment..." I'll crack them open.

GM: Before you can do that you feel a surge of pain as a Bolt attack program hits you from behind. As you turn around you spot another Grid-Runner, his avatar looking like a demonic suit of armor, holding a staff crackling with lightning.

David: "Uh oh. Just got spotted in the Grid. Don't know if he's sounded an alarm yet, but better be careful."

GM: Cass, you loose the gaurds on the other side of the door from your sonics for a moment, then you catch them again as they both come running for the doors.

GM: Okay. Alex, what are you doing.

Alex: I'm going to run to the staircase, getting a bolt spell ready.

GM: Okay Alex, you should make it there soon. David, you're next.

David: Is my shield allright? (GM nods) Okay. I'll drop the Stealth program, didn't work anyways; then I'll launch a Snare program. See if I can slow his connection down.

GM: You launch the program, and the Avatar twitches for a second, but then he speeds back up again. Looks like he's got a hardline in the system. Okay Benn, you're up.

David: Damn.

Benn: I'm going to follow Carak. Got both my ion rifle and the enemy's gauss gun ready for hip firing.

Cass: Just don't hit me you nit!

Benn: Hey! I only did that the one time! Blame the dice, not me.

GM: Okay. Cass, before you can react, the two gaurds; once again armored Solarians; come running through the door and actually rush right past you up the stairs. Your move.

Cass: Idiots... Okay, I'll use my webgun on them both.

GM: They both get tangled up in the mono-wire threads and end up banging down the stairs in a heap. Alex and Benn arrive just as the hit the ground floor. Cass, you're up again.

Cass: I'll snap their necks like the last one.

GM: You manage to get one of them before his buddy spots you, he manages to tilt his gun enough to fire at your leg.

Cass: Damn! Well there goes my shift suit. Missed the bone though, my repair systems should keep the blood loss to a minimum.

GM: (nods and looks to David) Okay. The other Runner laughs as your Snare fails, then levels his staff at you and launches another Bolt program.

David: Just hope my Shield holds.

GM: Another blast of pain, but the shield just holds, though there's cracks appearing in the surface. What're you doing.

David: No more nice bot. I'll load my Nuke program, then jack out after I launch it.

GM: (blinks, but nods) Okay. You fire off the program, and the last image from the Grid is the other Runner's look of shock before the program ends up crashing the whole network! You end up back in realspace back in the accessway. Benn, you're up.

Benn: Do I have a clear line of fire on the webbed gaurd still alive? (GM nods) Okay then, I'll empty both barrels into his chest. One shot from the ion and gauss rifles.

GM: Zot and boom. The Gauss gun isn't of the silent variety and there is a loud crack as the slug hits him square in the chest, with the ion pulse causing a neat hole to appear beside the bloody one, smoke curling into the air.

Benn: I'll look over at Tali, "You allright hon?"

Cass: I growl back up at him, looking at my leg, "Do I *look* allright to you?"

GM: Alex, you arrive a moment before this by the way.

Alex: (chuckles and nods) I put a hand on Shyyn's should and chuckle. "Guess she's allright if she's yelling at you. Now, may I suggest we deal with the rest of these bad guys before they come charging in?"

Benn: Yeah. Unless they decide to wait for us to come to them.

GM: Well what do you know, but you can hear the clomping of PA feet coming from outside the security checkpoint.

Cass: How close?

GM: Close enough to hear the stomping, but not right outside the door?

Benn: I'll check these two thugs. They carrying anything that'd punch through a PA suit?

GM: One of the gaurds was carrying two plasma grenades, but that's about it for heavy stuff. Both were armed with the same gauss guns as the other two.

Benn: I'll take the 'nades.

David: I'll take the time to try and catch up to the others.

GM: Well, this seems like a good place to take another break. (Brief complaints, then agreement) Okay, see you next time!

(Was getting a bit long, so figured I'd wrap up here. This should give you a basic idea.)

******

[LordSmerf]

Okay, an interesting piece, here's some commentary:

As I understand it the point of this exercise is to figure out where you need the mechanics to do things?  A couple of examples:

"I case a spell", "Okay roll"  Are you rolling for: 1) seeing if you know such a spell, 2) seeing if you ccan successfully cast such a spell, 3) the unintended consequences of the spell, 4) some other stuff, 5) some combination of the above?

So, am I just rolling to see if I know it and then it automatically succeeds if I do?  Am I looking at a list on my character sheet and then rolling to see if I successfully cast that spell?  Do I automatically succeed, but some unintended consequence occurs?  Something else?

The answer is highly dependent upon the game.  What do you want to say with your game?  What flavor do you want it to have?

"I sneak up behind him and break his neck."  "Okay roll"  Am I rolling for: 1) Stealth, 2) Martial arts, 3) Guts, 4) Something else, 5) Some combination?

If I make my stealth roll do I just get to kill him?  Do I automatically sneak and then have to test my neck breaking skill?  Do I have to roll to find out if my character has enough willpower to kill another living being, and if he does I do so?  Some other thing?

Again, the answers depend on the game.

The whole point here is to see where you want the system to enhance play?  Based on this write-up it looks like you don't need any mechanics, and in fact would be better off without any.  Clearly the group can tell the story they want to tell without any mechanics.  What you should do is write a setting book and sell that.

Now, I assume that you actually have something that sets your game apart from other games, but I don't see it here.  What does your game do that is cool that other games don't?  I'm not talking about new ways to do stuff that was done in Shadowrun (which is what this reminded me of), I'm talking about new things.

For example: Dogs in the Vineyard has these kick butt escalation rules.  They rock.  They are really good for making the players make tough decisions: "Am I willing to start a fight to win this?  Am I willing to start shooting to win this?"  What does your system do that's cool?

Thomas

[xenopulse]

Along the lines of what Thomas said, in my mind, this kind of game would be really cool as a Gamist-type game that focuses on resource allocation, stealth, and taking risks.

For example: Your pre-mission briefing, aside from all the Color (banter among characters, etc.), introduces a mission and certain restraints (no heavy ordinance, standard equipment only, etc.). That looks like a challenge-based game to me. It has objectives (rescue the hosties) and things to avoid (don't alert the terrorists).

Now. Think a little outside the box of task resolution (i.e., simply only having mechanics for every single little action). For example, have an overall Detection meter. Characters automatically succeed at certain actions--they are trained killers after all--but how much noise do they make? How close to alerting all the terrorists do they get? Do they have one-shot equipment like flashbangs or scramblers they can use to keep the meter low? And once they get detected, they'll have to deal with the fallout of having to shoot their way through and out, which will cost hostage lives and maybe their own. So now you have the ongoing suspense of a meta-mechanic and can handle each room as an individual little conflict, if you want.

What I am saying is, you should allow yourself to separate your game from Sim baggage. It might just be my yearning for more true Gamist games (because they're fun!), but I often see games bogged down by people who think their rules need to be somehow directly "realistic," whatever that means.

Overall, it just seems to me that the type of gameplay you're describing is not so much oriented toward character or setting exploration, but overcoming challenges. Don't get me wrong--an interesting setting can help make it more fun, and certainly you can have metaplots such as the characters being screwed over by their employers in the middle of a mission, then having a mission where they retaliate, etc.

Does this make sense at all? :)

[TracerFox]

Just want to say I'm very greatful for the both of you replying to my post. Was starting to wonder if anyone had even read it all the way through.

Anyways, I would like to respond to both your comments and questions, but I'll refrain from posting them right now. I want to give a little bit more time to see if anyone else decides to put up their own thoughts. I'd rather not alter their own observations with my own.

For now just let me say that both your replies have been *very* helpful.
Thanks!

[TonyLB]

The other thing I'll mention is that you've written up a lot of banter between characters, and that's getting no rules support, no GM support, no nothing.  

They're doing it because they love doing it, because it's part of the whole team-killers genre that you're going for.  So why not make it a relevant part of the rules?

[TracerFox]

The other thing I'll mention is that you've written up a lot of banter between characters, and that's getting no rules support, no GM support, no nothing.  

They're doing it because they love doing it, because it's part of the whole team-killers genre that you're going for.  So why not make it a relevant part of the rules?

I'd written the banter in mainly because of the fact that for me, stuff like this makes a 'good game'. Interacting in character and out of character in a manner that may not have anything to do with the 'plot' at hand.

As for getting no rules or GM support. I'm not sure. I'd simply taken it for granted in my own experiance, because this was what happened in 90% of any game I had played.

Honestly I have no clue at all how I might begin to make something like this part of the rules.

[TonyLB]

Yeah, but we do!  Lots of clues here.

My opinion?  If it's something that you think makes a good game then your system should make it happen.  After all, delivering the ability to play good games is what your system is (I assume) all about.

So, Banter.  Just to get your creative juices flowing, here's a possibility:

Each skill check is made with a pool of dice.  You roll against a target, get a certain amount of successes, so on and so forth.  Your opposition (another player, the GM as an NPC or the GM as environmental circumstance) looks at those successes and chooses whether to Cede the issue or to Contest it.

If they Cede the issue then you get to do what you want, but you get no bonusses to carry over into later rounds, no matter how much of a blow-out success you had.  The guard folds instantly, his throat cut, etc.

If they Contest the issue then they roll skill against you, trying to get successes.  Your successes cancel out theirs, and vice versa.  Whoever gets more successes gets to KEEP those dice, and add them to a skill roll of their choice in future.

And these rules apply to all sorts of conflict:  Witty banter, Stealth vs. Detection, Killin' folks.  You can roll dice over from one to the next with impunity.

So, yes, a spec-ops team that chatters and insults each other on the radio gets dice that make them harder to detect when it comes time to roll on stealth.  And the successes they earn on stealth, used for ambushes, give them a better chance to kill their opponents.  And killing their opponents cleanly is a matter of pride, so it gives them a better chance to win at witty banter.

This success-rollover mechanic is mostly lifted from Sorceror, which leads me to my next question:  What games are you familiar with?  Because there are games out there that do some pretty spectacular things in terms of reinforcing the designers vision of a good game.  Reading them can broaden your horizons, and I expect anyone here would be happy to give you a recommended reading list.

[Harlequin]

I'll echo Tony... read widely and steal liberally.  Lots of stuff out there that you might be able to use in this design.

In terms of banter, I'm not so sure that the solution Tony is suggesting would cut it... not because it's not nifty, but because it would rely on players rolling against each other during banter sequences, which isn't going to fly unless it's driven by more than mechanical reward.

That's not to say that you can't make banter important in the rules, though.

Here's an example for you, in keeping with the above transcript:

Whenever you hassle, dare, taunt, or inflict sarcasm on your teammates in your character's voice, you get to place a Banter Die in front of that player (or players).  Banter dice make things more challenging, but more rewarding.  Whenever you make an opposed roll, the GM will pick up all of the Banter Dice in front of you and add them to his side of the roll.  If you win that roll, however, each Banter Die used in this way gives you one XP to spend.  (I'm thinking TSOY-scale XP here, but whatever.)

If you wanna put an edge on it, tune the amounts and then make that the only way XP is given out.

Alternately, check out The Mountain Witch and make Banter Dice work like Trust.  By bantering with someone, you set up that player (not character, note) to either aid you, or screw you over... and the numbers are scaled such that you need that aid in order to really kick butt.

Just a couple of examples of how to push the mechanics to reward the portion of the script you find appealing.  Note, though, from my own skim of the above, the tactical concerns are generally being given greater precedence... or, perhaps more precisely, the group's preferences on tactics are being given a lot of air time.

Again you could reward this.  Perhaps anytime someone suggests a tactical pathway (such as "go in guns blazing" or the more sophisticated stuff in here), it gets mechanically recognized and people can put their money (dice etc) where their mouth is in terms of the question of which one will be more effective.  Heck, that would be kind of neat, though maybe not precisely in keeping with the substantial pre-written details you've got the GM coming up with ahead of time.  Make a system where everybody "votes" in some way on what'll be the most effective, most safe, etc. tactical path... and then challenge the GM to make the situation such that this analysis was correct.  Or perhaps correct except in one important particular.

There was a game here with a similar motif (spec ops and the like) at some point, danged if I can find it now, which did some really neat work with tactical parameters... it had a checklist of aspects of the mission ("Gear," "Intel" and so forth) which the players all ranked in importance, secretly.  So did the GM.  The run then got modified, or you got bonuses, or something like that based on how close together the rankings were.  I think it was an Actual Play post; if I run across the original I'll let you know.

- Eric

[Harlequin]

Aha.  Found it.

The game was Unsung, specifically the Mission System (which is near the bottom of the linked draft).

An actual play log which involved the system in action is here, with the mission system in action producing some quite neat results.

Not saying that you need to echo this... but it certainly feels like there's something there that echoes the undercurrents in your script above.

- Eric

[TracerFox]

Okay folks. I didn't post this before now because I wanted to give some time for others to post their own thoughts about the writeup. Now that some time has passed, and I've gotten some rather interesting and useful replies, it's time for me to post my own analysis of the writeup.

I should note that I am drawing on a little more than *just* the text in the writeup, so some of these conclusions/assumptions might seem out of the blue. Just know that I did have something to draw from.

Feel free to read through and offer your thoughts.
Specificly though, what I might need is specific advice on how I can mechanically accomplish and support the conclusions here. Any suggestions are valid here.

The reason I ask for your advice here is that I have to admit to a serious lack of experiance when it comes to different methods of game design, theory, etc. Heck, of all the games I have actually played or GM'd for, I'd guess that in basic theory and gameplay, they were 80-90% the same (RIFTS, WoD, Ironclaw, Marvel Supers, Starcluster).

Oh, just in case anyone is interested, I have an identical thread over on RPGnet here: http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=174780
And now on with the show!

****************************************************************

The PCs are a team of freelance operatives, part of a mercenary-style Guild.

The Guild acts as a form of mission 'brokerage', allowing it's Freelancer teams to choose their missions to some extent.

The GM should have at least general notes on things like objectives, enemy disposition and number; but PCs can subtly influence the actual circumstances of the mission.

The players should drive much of the gameplay, with the GM only providing momentum if things seem to have stalled.

Stealth is important for many mission types.

When undetected by the enemy, the PCs become even more powerful, even able to insta-kill many 'normal' enemies.

If the PCs are detected, or if the mission starts without stealth circumstances, action and combat revert to a more tactical environment. Detection should be partly based on what the PCs are doing during the mission, as well as the amount of time they take.

Team operations and joint tactics will be important to completing missions successfully. No one player should grandstand the entire spotlight.

Even during tactical combat, the PCs represent a cut above the average, so should be hard to put down for good.

Action should feel fast and tense when things go wrong (PCs detected, etc), but while the PCs can and likely will get roughed up badly, only serious damage will adversly effect performance. Even then, the PCs may not actually be killed from such wounds.

Gameplay should be focused around overcoming clearly defined challenges and obstacles.

GMs are encouraged to provide some continuuity from one mission to another, with Interludes between missions involving some common story elements.

'Powers' and Gear provide the largest modifications to overall effectiveness, with base ability (skill, attributes, whatever) providing an above-average capability.

Powers include Cybertech, Psionics, Magic, and Shii Arts.

The digital reality of the Data-Grid includes both abstracted virtual environments, as well as 'Glassroom' environments that allow the Grid Runner to maintain continuuity with the rest of the party.

When delving into the Grid, GMs are encouraged to find ways to keep party seperation to a minimum, only diverting to pure abstract digital environments when necessary for the mission or story.

Character ability will determine if a task succeeds, while Gear will determine overall effectiveness of this success.

At the end of every mission, both the team as a group and individual team members are evaluated based on mission performance. Taking risks and succeeding during the mission will reap greater personal rewards, while failed risks can incur some form of penalty. Failed mission objectives will incur a team penalty, while meeting objectives will reap team rewards.

One of the in-game rewards will be a variable 'salary' with which to purchase Gear. Salaries are on a Per-Interlude basis, and are determined by the evaluation of the previous missions. The better a Team and an individual Freelancer does, the higher their salary.

Team assets are shared equally, paid for by the overall team's salary, and will pay for things such as: base of operations, ammunition and stores, repairs, and other assets which all team members use fairly equally.

Personal salaries will be used to pay for things such as individual Gear loadouts (which can then be transferred into Team stores if desired), certain Powers, and other assets which only that team member will use.

Depsite the variety of Gear and Powers, all the 'sub-systems' should share a universal success mechanic, and care should be given to balance the Powers so that no one option is the best in all situations.

The team as a whole should have a reputation rating, somehow based on evaluations of previous missions. The better a team does, the higher their reputation. Reputation should grant advantages (perhaps by providing access to special Gear or services).

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Trace,

It seems to me as if you have described Shadowrun to a T.

That's not written to say, "So stop designing your game." It does mean that you should familiarize yourself with Shadowrun and try to find the points of difference that you can focus on to your advantage. Either something that you are doing better, or something that you are doing differently.

I also think that the most important aspect of your game to work on is what I call, very generally, the "reward system." Reward systems include every form of direct payoff for play - whether social among the real people, procedural among the rules-use, or imaginative/mechanical among the characters.

I think that confining your reward system to "money for the characters to buy gear, points for the characters to improve scores" will put your game too deeply beneath the already-existing, well-established examples of Shadowrun and (in fantasy games) Tunnels & Trolls and D&D3.

So you might keep those things, sure, but also consider other aspects of a reward system to include or integrate into the game.

Best,
Ron

[TracerFox]

Hi Trace,

It seems to me as if you have described Shadowrun to a T.

That's not written to say, "So stop designing your game." It does mean that you should familiarize yourself with Shadowrun and try to find the points of difference that you can focus on to your advantage. Either something that you are doing better, or something that you are doing differently.

I'm moderately familliar with the Shadowrun setting, mainly through the various video game spawnings, but have never played the RPG system itself.
In either case, I was discussing just this with Clash Bowley a couple nights ago, and I think I know where Shattered Prism (SP) and Shadowrun (SR) differ, we came up with a one-liner description of the overall SP setting:
"Shattered Prism: All the sizzle of Cyberpunk/Shadowrun, but without the rotten meat!"

Which is to say that even though all the 'toys' of the setting are very similar, the social impacts are less severe. There isn't much of the social decay and hopelessness one finds in CP/SR, where the huddled masses are little more than cogs in the machine.
In SP the general public lead rather content lives, and any oppression on the behalf of megacorps or governments is covert and subtle.

Now is this enough to relaly distinguish SP from CP/SR? I don't know.

I also think that the most important aspect of your game to work on is what I call, very generally, the "reward system." Reward systems include every form of direct payoff for play - whether social among the real people, procedural among the rules-use, or imaginative/mechanical among the characters.

I think that confining your reward system to "money for the characters to buy gear, points for the characters to improve scores" will put your game too deeply beneath the already-existing, well-established examples of Shadowrun and (in fantasy games) Tunnels & Trolls and D&D3.

So you might keep those things, sure, but also consider other aspects of a reward system to include or integrate into the game.

Best,
Ron

Which is kind of the point of coming here honestly. I am out of my league in attempting to design such 'out of the box' systems or mechanics. To be brutally honest, every RPG I have played or GM'd has had fairly similar rewards: in-game Gear and some variant of XP.
I have no personal experiance to draw upon in trying to develop something that diverges from these models. And I know some here have suggested I go out and read much and filch liberally, but I'm not sure if this cuts it.
Reading a mechanic/system in a book and actually understanding how it functions sadly are two different things with the way I tend to process information. Practical examples are usually required before I'll really catch on. Which means I need someone to explain it in practical examples, or to personally experiance it in actual play.

I know the next bit of advice will be 'Well go play it then!'
This also is a difficult prospect. Face to face gaming is pretty much out because in the town I live in, there is exactly one game shop, and to date I have found only two players who would even entertain the idea of joining a game that wasn't either D&D/D20, or Magic: The Gathering.
Which means the only real option I would have for playing these innovative games would be online in the IRC channels. This is perfectly acceptable. If someone knows of a game I might benefit from, that could handle another player... Please let me know?

Anyways, I don't want to sound intentionally confrontational or negative. I just wanted to outline my limitations right off the bat.

Anyways Ron, thanks for the reply!

[Harlequin]

Some of these games' reward mechanics drip intensity straight out of the box, and it's relatively easy to imagine them even if you can't get a group in play.  With others that's less true.  If you identify a specific element where you want to distinguish your game or push the edge of design, we can probably find games which won't even need to be played for you to catch a glimmer of what they've managed in that element.

For instance, The Shadows of Yesterday is available online and is one example of a promising take on reward systems (it calls 'em Keys).  There's a lot of raw ground in Keys and their descendants, yet to be mined; personally I like them but I think they're really the forerunner of something immensely cool that has yet to be invented.  Similarly, if you want to play around with IIEE, TSoY not only has the clearest explanation of the concept I've ever seen, but also implements not just one but in fact two distinct takes on IIEE, one in "normal" mode and one during Bringing Down the Pain.

In terms of reward systems (Ron's comment on the importance of these is very apt), there are a few other places that you could probably look even without a playgroup to back up the reading.  Dogs in the Vineyard comes to mind, with Fallout; Prime Time Adventures, from what I've heard, might also reward a read for reward systems even without play.  (It's on my Gen Con list, so I can't comment directly.)  I'm sure others inthread could suggest others, if "reward systems" is what you want to research.

In addition, check out the Actual Play threads here.  Almost as good as playing, sometimes.  Heck, try a search of that forum for "Reward" and see what you get.  Those threads, plus a copy of the game, will probably go a long way to being intelligent research into any given game's cool tricks.

Doing the same thing with the Indie Design forum might get you more gems in the raw, less polish, but could also find you people struggling with the same specific issues.

But first you're kind of going to have to choose an angle.  Is reward systems the place you want to start?

- Eric