Simulative Western RPG

[Remko]

Hi all,

I'm searching for a simulative western RPG, basically one aimed at historical basis. I'm trying to create a system myself, because I haven't found a system created well enough to really create the feeling of being in the western countries. Time to think of: 1830's to 1880's, so with the mexican war, North-South war etc. I'll bring in some narrative elements (the choosing between your own goal and that of your country (the strong patriotism of that time)). I've tried Shady's Gulch and have read part of the book of Gunslingers (an Action supplement).

Thoughts:

1. It will need a pretty combat-heavy system, due to the cinematic realism I'm after.
2. Combat will be the important part I'm after, but no gamism. Simply simulative.
3. I think I need a task resolution system, again because it is simulative.

Does anyone know of such a system.

[Valamir]

The original old TSR Boothill game would probably fit your needs.  It was definitely a simulative approach although with the rather clunky mish mash of different mechanics common to early 80s era RPGs.  later editions of Boothill streamlined the mechanics a bit but also lost alot of the flavor.

I remember the combat system had several different scales one for long range back and forth shooting from cover like cavalry vs. the indians or the posse against a hole up outlaw gang, another for shootouts at high noon, and I think there was a third...maybe for saloon brawl scale.

I seem to remember that the shoot out version used very small units of time so that one could measure in units the added delay to fast draw speed for using a double action revolver or the advantage of combining a hair trigger with a speed draw holster.  My recollections are kind of fuzzy (the last time I played was as a kid) but I remember spending some time trying to figure out the best combination of gun and rig to both maximize draw speed and have a decent gun capable of dropping the opponent.

The higher scales used longer units of time and so started losing the detailed differences and giving advantages to factors other than speed.

It can be hard to find the first edition, but they'll crop up on Ebay from time to time.

There are also a number of REALLY good western minatures rules set I recommend you checking out...especially since you're emphasizing combat.  Not that you'd want to go full bore miniatures but there are some good ideas to mine.  I'd recommend checking out "Once Upon a Time in the West" (I've no idea if they had permission to use that name) and "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon" as well as the old AH board/card game "Gunslinger"

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

For the 80s-ish version of what you're looking for, I suggest GURPS with whatever western supplements and support material they offer.

The big western RPG of the 1990s was Deadlands, and it should offer at least some ideas or usable parts for your search.

Best,
Ron

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

I own both those books that Ron mentioned.  Deadlands is by far a more entertaining read and more fun to play (I recomend both the origonal and the D20 version).  However, if you're looking for something to start working from as a foundation, then go with the GURPS supplements.  They'll give you the basics of what you need.  

Peace,

-Troy

[Remko]

Hi all...

First of all, thanks for your reaction.

Deadlands probably doesn't fit the type of game I'm after for this idea, because of the supernatural influences it has (or at least I thought it had). I'm searching for a RPG on a more historical basis. I haven't tried Boothill yet, so I'll check that one out.

PS: Ron, I didn't mention I was looking for a 80's RPG system, just a system capable of simulating the 1830s to 1880s. I think you misunderstood there.

[kennin]

Good evening people!

Let me help to explain our goal... we want to create a semi realistic, cinematic role playing game based in het Wild West.
Now we have two options: either take an already existing RPG for a basics, or we build one ourselves.

The problem is, that we can't find a suitable basic RPG...
- Boothill is not efficient and playable enough, nor sufficiently detailed
- Deadlands is driving me away due to the supernatural aspect... I can't imagine that the game still is fun if you eliminate all supernatural things
- GURPS is not my kind of game... it just doesn't fit... too much possibilities to enable power gaming or even worse. And I don't believe in generic RPG's.
- D20 modern... Nah... that's not it either. I tried it and it still feels like Dungeons and Dragons, but with guns... (which is logical because it IS D&D) and the modern atmosphere is just not fitting into this system, to my feeling

What we do look for is a system with a general Wild West feeling... it should be quite but not entirely realistic, more story telling oriented than dice rolls... combat is more important than skills though, due to the general setting, of course.

The other idea was, of course, to write a set of rules ourselves, but that seems to be harder than it sounds, when you are only two people...

[Ron Edwards]

Hi guys,

Let me explain the goals of the people who've been responding to you; I'm speaking for others because I know them pretty well through all the posting we do here.

We're not offering you "perfect games" that you should play as-is. We're suggesting that you should read, perhaps play, and, if you'd like, modify these games as to great or small extent they have shared your goal.

For example, I recognize that Deadlands is not, as a full game, exactly what you are looking for. My post suggested that you utilize parts of Deadlands if they seem to fit well.

And even if you don't like the way one or another of these games works, you can use your experiences to help you make decisions about what you'd like to design.

Thanks for posting a full description of what you're looking for or trying to do, though. I'll think it might work best if we just dive into the idea that you two are trying to design an RPG, and use our shared knowledge of these other games as points of reference.

Best,
Ron

[kennin]

Okay, I see your point.

Let me explain then, that I'm not at all a rookie on RPG... I play RPG's since the very early nineties... must have been 91 or so...
I know TDE, D&D, WhiteWolf, Shadowrun and Everway quite well...
I played Boothill, Hero-system, the system of CoC/RuneQuest, I have XP with GURPS, and I sniffled into Deadlands...

Just to clear it out :)

And: thank you all VERY much for any help, it really is greatly appreciated!

Anyhow: I think that making an own set of rules will be the best option, though it is difficult to be original.

[Andrew Cooper]

I think you are going to have to design your own system or take a generic one and modify/drift it towards what you want.  

I'm not a big FUDGE fan but it is a very loose engine that you could add stuff to until it did what you wanted.  That's what they did with the FATE system and it is excellent.  

You might even consider looking at FATE... although I don't think it is really a Simulationist style game, it might be a good starting point also.  The advantage there is that it has already added a lot of good stuff to the basic FUDGE engine and you wouldn't have to duplicate the effort.   The disadvantage is that there might be things in FATE that you don't like and you have to edit them out.

Another system you might consider stripping down to the basic Dice Mechanic and Skill System is Alternity.  Have only Humans for a Race or make the races into White, Hispanic, American Indian... etc.  Come up with some Western Professions... Gunslinger, Gambler, Sherrif, Cowboy.... etc.  Then go and add/subtract stuff from the Skill list.  That seems like a lot of work but it is far less than designing your own from scratch.  The dice mechanic and advancement system is already in place and it works.  You wouldn't have to playtest it nearly as much to make it do what you wanted.

Anyway... that's my two cents.