decent review

[darrick]

new review of Empire of Satanis in this Dunwich Herald issue.  some of my friends at the Forge like Paul Czege and Scott Knipe found EoS to be very Lovecraftian, the Herald not so much...

http://home.comcast.net/~esox99/review_jun05.html

thanks everybody for checking out Satanis, if you've played it, please email me or post it in Actual Play cause i'm still interested in doing a more comprehensive second edition.

thanks, D
http://www.cultofcthulhu.net

[hardcoremoose]

Well, it's not a bad review.  Personally, I flinch at his definition of "Lovecraftian"; I think most people will agree that obsessing over mythos minutiae is mistaking the forest for the trees and not at all what Lovecraft was about, but oh well.  I think we could have a pretty interesting conversation about how EoS is or isn't Lovecraftian, particularly in light of your personal doctrine of faith, but that's probably a topic for a different forum (or maybe not...I wonder if it would be relevant to design issues you might have?).

Anything new going on with EoS's design that would be fun to talk about, maybe in a new thread?

- Scott

[darrick]

since Call of Cthulhu is usually labeled Simulationist, i think whether a game is "Lovecraftian" or not does influence design issues.  however, since i was going for more of a Narrativist game, i tried not to bog EoS down with forcing people, or the setting, to be strictly Lovecraftian.  beyond that, i don't know... i'd like other people to comment if they have an opinion.

right now, i'm pretty interested in the concept of Drift.  whenever i played Satanis, or any game for that matter, there are certain rules i ignore or change per circumstance.  it seems to be the natural way of things, perhaps accident or a purposeful invisible hand?  sometimes a particular way of playing will seem to evolve into what the GM or Players think it "should be".  maybe that is based on what they are used to or what they assume is the best way to handle a situation?

you, Scott, are probably one of the few people at the Forge that have actually played it enough to see any Satanis Drift during game play.

D
http://www.cultofcthulhu.net

[Jasper]

Darrick,

Do you find yourself drifting different rules each time you play Satanis, or the same ruls every time? Does it have to do with the people you're playing with, or is it independent?

[hardcoremoose]

you, Scott, are probably one of the few people at the Forge that have actually played it enough to see any Satanis Drift during game play.

Sure, we drifted it a bit.  We especially drifted it backwards, because at the time you were revising heavily but we saw conflicts and contradictions with the new rules, so we ignored them.

But you bring up an interesting point when you say:

whenever i played Satanis, or any game for that matter, there are certain rules i ignore or change per circumstance.

When you play other games, sure, drift is what makes it work for you.  When you play your game, you shouldn't have to drift it.  You should design a game that does exactly what you want all the time.  Does Ron drift Sorcerer?  Hell no!  Because Sorcerer, at least for Ron, never fails to provide cool stuff regardless of circumstance.

Not to dog out my buddy Luke, but many, many months back I remember looking at some Actual Play threads of a Burning Wheel game he was running, and he was describing the moments where he would drift his own rules.  And I was like "It sounds like a fun session, but I can't wait to see the game Luke designs that does what he wants all the time, every time, without fail."  To my discredit I haven't seen Burning Wheel Revised yet...I need to look into that.

Anyway, I think when we design games and then end up drifting our own designs, it's because we were designing for other people...we're designing for what we think other people want.  And hell, they're probably drifting the same things; they probably want exactly what we want.  How many people actually used encumbrance rules?  But many, many games had them.

Sorry for the impassioned post.  This just happens to be something I like talking about.  ;)

- Scott

[darrick]

hang about there hoss, i don't see drift as a negative thing or a concept that means a set of rules needs changing.  for a game like checkers, i think a fair amount of drift would mean going back to the drawing board and re-designing the game.  but for a dynamic and multi-leveled paradigm like a roleplaying game, i think that any and all "rules" are subject to GM, Players, mood, and circumstance.  i would go further and say that no set of rules can be "the best" for a particular game play experience, everything is adaptable and should be.

just as the English language drifts or slowly evolves over time doesn't mean that a way of speaking in the 1920's is better or worse than the way americans talk in 2005.  maybe it's not evolution but merely change in and of itself.  certain words take on new meanings, sometimes they get softer or combine like contractions.  to me, drift means having a thing live in the real world.  like a young adult, you release it out into life and it becomes its own person based on certain proclivities and patterns.  if a rpg is to stay completely static, why let people experience it rather than just keeping it as one's private notes?

maybe Ron doesn't drift Sorcerer, i don't know, but i would think that any game would become a little stale (almost prison-like) without the potential for natural flow.

it's hard to say if i designed Empire of Satanis for other people or a room full of people just like me.  although some days Story Alteraiton or the Color Spheres of Influence might intuitively behave better or differently in a certain scenario?  i think that taking drift to mean that a core set of rules needs adjustment is a mistake.  no matter what you change, drift happens and it should.  that's my opinion anyway.

D
http://www.lulu.com/content/113758

[darrick]

meanwhile, Scott and I came to terms with our Drift differences over some private messages and proceeded to cuddle on the couch for many hours watching The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly...

however in other news, i'm trying to procure a more comprehensive review of Empire of Satanis at rpg.net by posting in their forum...  low and behold, one of my most ardent fans decided to sing me praises.  i'm copying and pasting the glory that is his impression of my ouvre.  ah, there's nothing quite like a good review!

"I don't care for the subject matter, nor do I consider it innovative. It takes the worst aspects of Call of Cthulhu, World of Darkness, Rifts, Senzar, Synnibar and FATAL and smashes them together. I find it appalling in that 13-year-old misogynist-dweeb-future mass killer way. It reeks of the worst kind of sexism and escapist violence that the RPG community should seek to *avoid*--because it just proves our critics' arguments 110%.

The editing in the document is terrible. Did you take wannabe dork as a second language? Bad English, bad spelling, and that "I raped the thesaurus to look smart" ambiance. Yes it is "unleashing a kaleidoscope of nightmarish visitations of infernal damnation" but not for the reasons you want it to. Bad... bad... bad....

Probably the biggest fault of the entire premise is I get zero "alien culture" feel. The characters, while exalted as non-human, are all too human. But the worst, most exaggerated, 13 year-old mustache wranglin', scenery-chewin' I'm soooo eeevvvil kind of human. Jack Palance would be oh-so at home here, except even he has some standards of decency and restraint.

About halfway through the document I began wondering for how many years did your parents beat you and lock you in a closet. At least I hope that's what happened, because anyone that considers raping tentacle flesh hook girls and exterminating entire races as "entertainment" had better have an excuse larger than Mary Jane Rottencrotch wouldn't go to the G.D. prom with me.

The sad thing is for so obviously wanting to be over the top and shocking the game isn't. It's just limp. It's less of a game and more of a glimpse into the author's internal fantasy psyche. Please, by all means, get professional help. You need it.

And please, no more self-made artwork. Please."

hey, stuff happens.  remember fellow rpg artistes, you may get poor reviews, but they are probably nothing like this so be happy!

dear Satanis, what a world...
http://www.cultofcthulhu.net

[daMoose_Neo]

Another thing to watch for in a bevy of reviews is common threads.
I haven't been over the document myself, but have kept an eye on proceedings for EoS and no matter who does the review/remarks, it never seems to fail that the editing is always right in the crosshairs, as this rather snarky and ill-phrased poster has mentioned (Something I like about the Forge as opposed to RPG.Net- They say the same thing, but the Forge folks lose the attitude and give constructive comments- its awesome ^_^)
I know its been over before, but when as many reviews/commentators cite the same, its typically a good idea to consider listening.
Case in point, my own Imp Game has been dinged by reviewers/playtesters for the lack of creativity in my layout- one reviewer thought in the end it was good for a PDF product, another called it into question, but the point is its a sticking point. The PDF I'm not mucking around with, but the print version due out in August will address some of the issues.
Don't need to take the lemming approach and destroy your creation over critisism in content, but when several start citing the structure tis a decent idea to at least review the portions in question~

[darrick]

you're absolutely right.  the layout needs work.  although since it's already published, i could only improve a second edition.  

but congrats on seeing the constructive silver lining!

all i really wanted to do was provide some much needed laughs in this sometimes stuffy environment.  this should also be a reminder not to take life (or games) too seriously.

let's loosen up, people!

D

[MisterPoppet]

Hmm... It's seems to me that the reviewer has this strange "13-year-old" fetish. If he has other reviews, read tham and see how he reacts to other games. Usually it's safe to ignore comments that they use over and over. Also, you can really take him by suprise and make an actual joke version of the game and send it to him. You can say something like. "here's an improved and updated copy. I hope it's not too imature and "13-year-old"-ish for you." Then grin real and snicker when you turn around. But that's just what I would do. Has anyone actually made any specific comments about the system of play? I find that to be a major thing to look for.

-Mister Poppet-

[xenopulse]

Anyone who uses "110%" should be shot. Alternatively, they should not be considered authorities with regards to criticizing other people.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

This thread needs a purpose. Darrick, is there a point of discussion you'd like addressed?

In general, this forum does not exist for commenting on text at other websites, especially when those websites have forums of their own. What I suggest is for you to define some decision you need to make as a publisher regarding reviews.

If you can't come up with some decision or something similar, then there's no point in continuing the thread.

Best,
Ron

[darrick]

good point Ron, yes there are specific points i was covering.

1.  to show others an example of a ridiculously bad review - moreso that the review itself was bad rather than the thing being reviewed.

2.  how to take such a festering pile of hilarity and effecitively use it by publicizing and feeding off the "passionate hatred and idiocy" of the reviewer.

3.  it is my opinion that many forums on the net, this one included, could use a little light hearted fun.  everyone takes themselves too seriously.  everyone.  my post is meant to make fun of ourselves as rpg designers, as well as, the people who critique us...

D
http://www.cultofcthulhu.net