[7W] Quantifying fate and player power in a Gamist world

[Justin Marx]

Hi everyone,

Am fairly new here, but I suppose I wouldn't be browsing these forums if I wasn't trying to write a damn RPG like everyone else. In any case, I will give a (hopefully) very brief description before moving onto my problem questions.

Seven Worlds (generic name, working title, long story), is a sci-fi setting and game with an emphasis on a pantheistic religious system, which empowers technology through religious magic (theurgy). Settings are a dime a dozen, so I'll spare the exposition, even though it is central to the concept in every way (I don't normally play setting-less games - System+Setting=Cool IMHO). In any case this game is more or less pitched with strong gamist/simulationist elements, for individual or group play, and the system I have written thus far to be rules intensive, gritty and with a high rate of mortality for combat. And for aesthetic reasons I am using 2d12, 'cause I like the dice and they make a satisfying clack when they're rolled together....

In any case, the viciousness of actual combat I am writing into it, from a gamist perspective, from the point of view that "realistic" (note the quotation marks) combat puts a much greater risk into fighting, and encourages non-violent strategies in gameplay. This increased risk means that the gamist reward of violent accomplishment is much more satisfying to the players, and in my opinion, heightens the drama.

The problem of course is that it makes combat extremely difficult when it does occur, and dice rolls can cause rapid death with concomitant player misery and frustration. Now the most common way I have seen of getting around this terrible problem, even with relatively non-mortal combat systems, is by the use of Fate Points, or somesuch, which can spare a character from death a limited number of times.

Now, one of the themes of 7W is that characters represent mythic heroes in an unfolding and largely undefined storyline. As such, the PCs represent individuals who do not get cut down in the line of fire, but who pull off spectacular feats because they are fated to do so. Now, the mechanics that I have developed thus far are a little complex, and perhaps unweildy, but I'll explain em so I can get to my point.

Firstly - all characters have a general level of 'karma', broken down into fortune and protection. There are negative traits for these as well (calamity and jeopardy). These are minor modifiers applied to most dice rolls when the character relies on pure chance (lucky dip, whatever), or when his life is in danger (combat, obviously). These ratings are constantly modified during gameplay due to charms, blessings, curses, talismans etc. and the effects they give are relatively minor, however they are consistently employed.

Secondly - some characters have access to 'Sanctions', which are interventions by their patron deity in reality to alter chances. These are greater in effect, but limited in number. A Sanction can overpower an enemy miracle, mysteriously deflect a laser beam, catch the bullet on your pocket bible, etc. but regardless they represent a deity intervening on the PCs behalf and as such are largely at the discretion of the GM for use. The effects are not massive (a la - God does not appear before you), but should change the course of a conflict drastically.

Thirdly, and trickiest - is a quality that I have invented called 'Chandrakur'. In any case this is a character's Free Will being able to command fate and chance. The rationale is complicated and doesn't need to be explained, but what it means is that characters can influence fate directly for their own choosing through Intercessions. Moreso, the effects, while not spectacular, are much more malleable than the other effects - a neutral individual may help the PC even though it goes against his interests, an enemy's weapon may misfire, etc etc etc... but overall the idea is that people who have great Chandrakur make history. They can get people to agree with them, or influence whatever conflict they embark on for no reason except fate is going their way because they make it go their way. Obviously, this ability, specifically Intercessions, are limited in number, in fact are quite small. However, it can increase through character development.

The way these variables are determined at character creation comes down to player choice however - through the selection of the Character Role. This is critically important. This does not decide the ultimate destiny of the character (for we have no idea, and trying to predict future events in gameplay and guide players towards them is both pointless and difficult), but it does give the player some idea of how their character may fit into the overall scheme. For instance, The Champion role is the character with lots of karma and a few sanctions, but not one who will influence his own destiny personally (i.e. low Chandrakur and no Intercessions). The Cursed role is a character who is fighting fate with his or her Chandrakur because they have very low (negative) karma and are generally picked on by the Gods. The Devoted Pawn has lots of sanctions and karma but no Chandrakur because they have given their free will over to higher powers.... and so on.

Now, the Narrativists out there may be wondering why such an exotic system exists for what I see as basically narrative control on the part of the players, even if it is only through the medium of a large (and at the moment, cumbersome) system. Intercessions can make NPCs change their minds, and can potentially dictate setting elements that are as yet undescribed. The reason for this mechanic is that the game I am designing uses the heavy crunch systems that myself and my gaming group like using, perhaps because we are gamists at heart with history degrees (such a terrible combination....).

Now, I am not a master of the GNS subtleties, even less so the subtleties of the remainder of the terminology, and have more or less guided the design process by instinct up until now when I realise that two modes of gameplay are in contact and the system can decide which way it goes - the gamist fortune elements that reward characters based upon their ability to risk high stakes (in this case, combat), and a narrative constraint that lowers the stakes a little but allows for greater drama.

Basically, the fate system is a balance to deadliness in the game, perhaps at the risk of making the game non-threatening. Obviously, fate is of limited use, but getting the two balanced is a tricky task. How to have fate as an ace in the sleeve while preserving player challenges?

OK, so now the more direct questions: such a system could go either way, and I have thought of writing two systems to allow for GM and player preference, for 'drift' of the gameplay style. Is that a realistic task?

Does anyone else know some effective systems for Fate mechanics, which are used in the same way in other games (I am thinking of Warhammer FRPG, but in RM supplements it crops up - both superficially and unsatisfyingly to me though, but I am sure that legions of writers have used it before)?

Is the three seperation of Fate necessary? I am trying to tidy things up, and I like lots of detail (thats the sort of group I play for), but is it, in this case, uneccesary?

How should Chandrakur as a developmental trait be increased? Through crunch-heavy, conflict success mechanics (eg. xp) which would lead to increasing returns and a rapid escalation of power (probably not a good idea) or through dramatic events? The latter option I prefer, but how to reward players for drama is difficult and abitrary, dependent on GM fiat, which is one thing I am trying to avoid. Does anyone have an idea for rewarding drama consistently?

And a general ' what are your thoughts? Specifically with the Character Roles?

Now, if I have been inspecific on any points, or have broken any of the thread-writing tips of this forum, or worse yet, if there is a more pertinent thread that can answer some of these questions, then please direct me pronto.

Thanks for your potential advice,
Justin

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

Okay, so let me make sure I know your essential questions.  First you ask:

Does anyone else know some effective systems for Fate mechanics, which are used in the same way in other games (I am thinking of Warhammer FRPG, but in RM supplements it crops up - both superficially and unsatisfyingly to me though, but I am sure that legions of writers have used it before)?

As far as games that use a fate mechanic, there aren't that many great ones IMO.  The Shadows of Yesterday: http://www.anvilwerks.com/tsoy/ sorta has one.  The Riddle of Steel sorta has one: http://www.theriddleofsteel.net/

But there was a really good thread here discussing that very topic: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=15270  I'd check that out for some advice.

Is the three seperation of Fate necessary? I am trying to tidy things up, and I like lots of detail (thats the sort of group I play for), but is it, in this case, uneccesary?

It's necessary if you feel it's necessary.  As long as it works and is fun, yeah it's necessary.  Things like this are as individual as the game and the designer.  It's as necessary as you personally feel it is.

How should Chandrakur as a developmental trait be increased? Through crunch-heavy, conflict success mechanics (eg. xp) which would lead to increasing returns and a rapid escalation of power (probably not a good idea) or through dramatic events?

Why not both?  Just make sure that rewards for combat are less than drama if you feel combat will create a too rapid pace for character advancement.  Thus, you also encourage dramatic narration.

The latter option I prefer, but how to reward players for drama is difficult and abitrary, dependent on GM fiat, which is one thing I am trying to avoid. Does anyone have an idea for rewarding drama consistently?

The GM is just a player, right?  So why not have all the players reward each other for Dramatic Events?  Make a scale from 1 to 5 (or whatever) and each player "grades" the person narrating at the moment.  Whatever the total is, is how much exp (or whatever) he earns.  This is the point where the designer must trust the players to be objective and good sports.

And a general ' what are your thoughts? Specifically with the Character Roles?

Generally, things seem fairly good.  Character roles (mythic heroes) are typical for an RPG.  You seem to have a fairly good idea when it comes to "What is your game about?" and "What do the characters do?"  So that's encouraging.  All I can say at the moment is keep working at it! :)

Peace,

-Troy

[PlotDevice]

Is the three seperation of Fate necessary? I am trying to tidy things up, and I like lots of detail (thats the sort of group I play for), but is it, in this case, uneccesary?

OK, the issue I am guessing is one of conflicting goals in the design.

(1) you want detail on fate

(2) you want characters to save their butts in combat

(3) you do not want to have the focus on fate being 'save me in combat'

So I would recommend making the 'save me in combat' very expensive in fate tokens (or whatever), but non combat actions and abilities very cheap in fate tokens.

Next, maybe having the different kinds of fate having difference currency for abilities/ action types: Karma can help best with social interaction, Sanctions with spiritual, and personal with physical, but give a scale for buying from one area to another...

That's my 2c.

Warm regards,
Evan

PS Like it, by the way. Am doing something different but vaguely similar with less detail at moment. :)

[Justin Marx]

OK, the issue I am guessing is one of conflicting goals in the design.
(1) you want detail on fate
(2) you want characters to save their butts in combat
(3) you do not want to have the focus on fate being 'save me in combat'

Basically yeah, that's the size of it.

So I would recommend making the 'save me in combat' very expensive in fate tokens (or whatever), but non combat actions and abilities very cheap in fate tokens.

Next, maybe having the different kinds of fate having difference currency for abilities/ action types: Karma can help best with social interaction, Sanctions with spiritual, and personal with physical, but give a scale for buying from one area to another...

I agree - however I was thinking of having karma as a perpetual modifier on a small scale, and Sanctions can increase theurgical (holy magic) power effects - as in the game the deity's are restricted to a pseudo-ethereal plane and can only interact with the cosmos through the power they grant to their worshippers. Both these effects cannot directly change combat at all, after all, the rest of the spiritual and theurgical mechanics exist to augment abilities in conflict (through war magic, blessings, prosetylising etc), so why stack them twice?

The Chandrakur bonuses are the trickiest, but that is compensated for as having exceptionally few tokens to use (Intercessions). They can be used in any conflict - social, physical, spiritual etc. In essence, this makes the fate mechanic solely dependent on the last trait to alter the narrative - player narrative control - while the remainder are merely stat and dice bonuses that augment a character's ability's across the board.

They (Chandrakur and Intercessions) increase slowly during gameplay, and I was thinking of having the game mechanic being on the lines of when a character defies another character's (whether PC or NPC, mortal, spirit or deity's) own fate. In other words, when the character can wrest fate away from the big players, using his or her own Chandrakur, that is when it increases - when fate starts paying attention to you by abandoning someone else.

This also highlights another part of the system - that when a character has 0 Chandrakur, they can never increase it. I am hoping that this increase mechanic suitably blends both gamist aspirations (successful strategising and dice rolling) while using a dramatic resolution (because interacting with another person's fate could only be a dramatic moment with a John Williams orchestral soundtrack.... I hope).

Thanks for your encouragement and advice Evan and Troy, it is well appreciated for a newbie game designer who constantly feels like he has bitten off more than he can chew.

Justin