Mesopotamia Game

[contracycle]

Hiya,

I think we need to go ahead and start prototyping, more or less: I favour the "uruk phenomenon" as a starting point, anyone have any preferences?  I like this 'cos its early and there will still be a lot of chalcolithic settlements about for contrast and context.  We should probably select at least one other period to realise so that we can look at how to do periodic transitions.

I think we are all roughly converging on a model, although I should mention that if tyhe situation were rival kings, there might be a very gamist style employed... but I think we can reexamine the idea after we've dones some preliminary sim-based setting design.  Lets pick a period, assemble some data, start thinking about ways to order it.  We have an interesting story about the "me" to exploit; one of the Uruk tales is of how Innana brings the "me" - which are kinda the instruments of civilisation, like clothes and pottery and seals and dances - from Enkil, who has hidden them, to Uruk.
The "me" themselves can be used as the conceptual hook for mechanics at the city level; they can have properties and numbers.  I'll see if I can find the list mentioned.  Also specific trade goods and cultural artifacts should be presented explicitly.

Thinking of being summarily clubbed - I'd be inclined to favour a combat mechanic in which any level of success resulted in death - wounds result from combat failures.  It's quite true to say that these are "disposable" characters and that protecting them from death is not a priority - I guess it would not protagonise them?  Anyway, fair Sim because after all you can kill a person with any weapon, and many things that are not weapons.  IIRC the dominant weapon is the mace and we should play up the precise cultural forms of violence.

We should probably employ some sort of character class framework - quite a lot of societies establish caste rankings through defined archetypes, and mesopotamia appears to have six, although I have not got that list either.  Or perhaps based on cities or the like, or a synthesis of the two.  Then there is of course the code of Hammurabi - quite interesting.  Its a late document, but the invention of law is one of mesopotamias claims to fame and we probably want to give it some prominence.  Maybe directly referenced in the mechanic?  The code has a fair amount to say about the assembly of evidence for trials, all based on personal testimony and lex talionas.
Seeing as we are looking at life time periods, we might also want to look at aging and the calendrical system mechanically.

In terms of sim premise of the game I would say that after some time percolating, my premise would be "how does society work"; or, lets say if I were running it, I think I would functionally be proposing a vision of how society worked and the players would be judging its plausibility, more or less.  

Magic.  One of the things that caught my eye was the story of gilgamesh - it ends with a surprisingly existentialist crisis.  They don't seem to have much of a sense of an afterlife either, although I need to do more reading, but instead of sort of existance as a whisp of dust in an empty room.  Gilgamesh's tale declares quite brazenly that immortality, for humans, lies only in human memory.  It's an interesting perspective and one I found contrasted in papers with the Egyptian system, first of the king only achieving an afterlife and then of this being achievable by cunning and artifice, more or less.  It made me think there might be more to be had from presenting neighbouring cultures than I had previously thought.  It might enhance the sense of distinct self for the mesopotamians, the nation of the "black heads" as they refer to themselves.  There is also quite a conscious relationship with the neighbouring chalcolithic peoples, and myths surrounding the incorporation or assimilation of nomadic tribes into the urban society, usually by seduction.  However, they are also looked down on as people who cannot talk properly, wash, or who will get a decent burial.

I think theres a lot to be had from the "critical mass" concept, especially in regards shifting scales as well as determining transitional moments.  Possibly, building up to a breakpoint could be a mechanical method.  Such climaxes should result in qualitative rather than quantitative changes in other mechanics - like being alive or dead, as it happens.

Well, I'm having fun:)  Although I've taken to poutting my text on the clipboard before I hit "submit".

[Mithras]

I've not come across The Source, but one book which has made a great impact on me is Geoffrey Bibby's Four Thousand Years Ago. Almost written for the roleplayer, it subtitles as 'A Panorama of Life in the Second Millenium BC', essentially bronze age and a little later than the Uruk period. Each chapter looks at a place and a people and a critcal event (Kassite invasion of Egypt, building of Stonehenge, battle of Kadesh, rise of Assyria, the fall of Crete, etc) through the eyes of individuals present. Often they are ordinary people, though they are not named or described - its a documentary style for the most part. But I absolutely love it - one of my favourite books. This thread reminded me greatly of it. Of course , written in 1961 (Collins) lots of theories are a little squiffy now, but it doesn't dull the impact of his writing.

[Mike Holmes]

I think we need to go ahead and start prototyping, more or less: I favour the "uruk phenomenon" as a starting point, anyone have any preferences?  I like this 'cos its early and there will still be a lot of chalcolithic settlements about for contrast and context.  We should probably select at least one other period to realise so that we can look at how to do periodic transitions.

Yep, I see starting with an Uruk level civ and eventually becoming a Babylonia level civ. That gives a good focus for research.

I think we are all roughly converging on a model, although I should mention that if the situation were rival kings, there might be a very gamist style employed.

Only with Gamist mechanics. If we work very hard on the focus of the mechanics we could definitely make a Narrativist version, and maybe even Sim version. OTOH, that's just one option. Like you say, the feasibility will be more obvious later.

We have an interesting story about the "me" to exploit; one of the Uruk tales is of how Innana brings the "me" - which are kinda the instruments of civilisation, like clothes and pottery and seals and dances - from Enkil, who has hidden them, to Uruk.
The "me" themselves can be used as the conceptual hook for mechanics at the city level; they can have properties and numbers.  I'll see if I can find the list mentioned.  Also specific trade goods and cultural artifacts should be presented explicitly.

Very cool. I hadn't come across that, yet. Definitely get them listed.

It's quite true to say that these are "disposable" characters and that protecting them from death is not a priority - I guess it would not protagonise them?

Death is not deprotagonizing at all. Romeo? Hamlet? We just have an opportunity to play more than one character in the game, which means that death in this game no longer means the end of the story for that player.

IIRC the dominant weapon is the mace and we should play up the precise cultural forms of violence.

Absolutely. What did they do for corporeal punishment. I read that the penalty for malpractice for physicians was the loss of a hand.

We should probably employ some sort of character class framework - quite a lot of societies establish caste rankings through defined archetypes, and mesopotamia appears to have six, although I have not got that list either.  Or perhaps based on cities or the like, or a synthesis of the two.

OK, just to be clear, we're talking here about the character's social class, not Class in the D&D sense, right? A character belongs to the Merchant Class, or something, he is not a 4th level Merchant. Just to be clear on the use of a potentially confusing term.

Yes, social class is very important to the game. I see characters as either starting high up in the social strata, or climbing the ladder (possibly over generations). How much upward mobility was there in Mesopotamian classes?

Then there is of course the code of Hammurabi - quite interesting.  Its a late document, but the invention of law is one of mesopotamias claims to fame and we probably want to give it some prominence.  Maybe directly referenced in the mechanic?  The code has a fair amount to say about the assembly of evidence for trials, all based on personal testimony and lex talionas.
Seeing as we are looking at life time periods, we might also want to look at aging and the calendrical system mechanically.

I'd like this to be something a civ can strive for (Code of Laws). They may have a simpler code earlier, but assembling it over time will be an important task. And the weight behind particular laws will depend on the method of encoding. Hamurabi's engraving them on stelae gives them a power and permenance beyond other encodings.

I agree that this is one of the most powerful elements of Mesopotamian history.

In terms of sim premise of the game I would say that after some time percolating, my premise would be "how does society work"; or, lets say if I were running it, I think I would functionally be proposing a vision of how society worked and the players would be judging its plausibility, more or less.  

Or "How do societies change and evolve?" Or even more precisely, "How do the actions of individuals impact directly, or portray indirectly, the changing nature of a civilization?"

Magic.  One of the things that caught my eye was the story of gilgamesh

What I think would be really cool, is if the players could rewrite these myths to relate to the particular development of their Mesopotamia. OTOH, the more stuff we do like that, the more generic it becomes. Where to draw the line?

- it ends with a surprisingly existentialist crisis.  

That struck me as well. I think it makes the generational thing more important.

It made me think there might be more to be had from presenting neighbouring cultures than I had previously thought.  

Well, from an accuracy POV, they'd certainly be hard to ignore, I'd think. And I see a lot of potential room for adventure in the form of diplomacy (absorbing peoples, as you point out) and trading, etc.

I think theres a lot to be had from the "critical mass" concept, especially in regards shifting scales as well as determining transitional moments.  Possibly, building up to a breakpoint could be a mechanical method.  Such climaxes should result in qualitative rather than quantitative changes in other mechanics - like being alive or dead, as it happens.

I like that. So, frex, when the temple is built or desroyed by flood, or desecrated by thieves, it might add a certain number of points to a Scene pool. When the pool gets to ten points, do a scene related to whatever issues caused it. The pool then drops based on how much the issues raised were resolved. Something like that?

Well, I'm having fun.

Whee!

Mike

[contracycle]

Some details on the me:


In the Legend "Inanna and Enki: The Transfer of the Arts of Civilization from Eridu to Erech" Innana acquires the me of rulership from Enki by getting him drunk and leaving quickly. The me number over a hundred, but only sixty-eight have survived the test of time. Here is what we have of them:


en-ship, godship, the exalted and enduring crown, the throne of kingship, the exalted scepter, the royal insignia, the exalted shrine, shepherdship, kingship, lasting ladyship, (the priestly office) "divine lady," (the priestly office) ishib, (the priestly office) lumah, (the priestly office) guda, truth, descent into the nether world, ascent from the nether world, (the eunuch) kurgarra, (the eunuch) girbadara, (the eunuch) sagursag, the (battle) standard, the flood, weapons(?), sexual intercourse, prostitution, law(?), art, the cult chamber, "hierodule of heaven," (the musical instrument) gusilim, music, eldership, heroship, power, enmity, straight forwardness, the destruction of cities, lamentation, rejoicing of the heart, falsehood, art of metalworking, scribeship, craft of the smith, craft of the leatherworker, craft of the builder, craft of the basket weaver, wisdom, attention, holy purification, fear, terror, strife, peace, weariness, victory, counsel, the troubled heart, judgement, decision, (the musical instrument) lilis, (the musical instrument) ub, (the musical instrument) mesi, (the musical instrument) ala.

[contracycle]

http://www-etcsl.orient.ox.ac.uk/section5/tr563.htm

This is translation of a set of instructions to farmers; makes quite detailed reading.

This is part of a collection of sumerian literature which can be found here:
http://www-etcsl.orient.ox.ac.uk/catalogue.htm

Note you have to drill down about 4 levels to get the english translation from a tiny link at the bottom of each page of "composite text"

[Mike Holmes]

More random notes.

The time frame keeps shifting on me. For a focused game with lots of action centered on each character, I see a game that goes from, say, Ur to Babylon at most. A total of only a few centuries. For a much more epic game, it could go from Eridu or Uruk to Chaldean Babylonia. A total of almost three millenia. The problem with the first idea is that you never get to see the hanging gardens or other later greatness. The problem with the second is that you'd have to go through characters pretty quickly or have big gaps in time to cover thirty centuries of life, which leaves somthing to be desired continuity-wise.

This brings us back to the possibility of doing it as "Mythic Babylon". In that case we can allow for much greater civilizations to grow in a much shorter time, ignoring any sticky "impossibilities" due to actual history. In any case, the game will be ahistoric, so why not go for this sort of aglomeration?


As far as social positions, there seem to have been three distinct classes throughout Mesopotamian history. Noble, Common, and Slave. Other than that, I haven't been able to find notes on what positions were higher than others.


We have to incorporate the griffin and other composite creatures, somehow. They're just too cool to ignore.


Oh, and that site above, Gareth. Awesome. Tons of translations. That's great.


And is it just me (hah) or do the me seem like an attribute list?

Mike