D6 System

[quozl]

Does anyone know if it is all right to create games in WEG's D6 system?  I've noticed a lot of free games out there using it and am wondering if WEG has allowed free use of its system or has just refrained from acting on freely available games.

---Jon

[Valamir]

I am fairly certain that dice mechanics are not copyrightable.  Referring to the rules as being "compatable with" would be bad.  Using the exact same terms to describe the mechanics would be dangerous.  Using totally copied text to explain the mechanics would be clearly wrong.

However, simply designing a game which uses the same type of mechanics as another game is not a violation.

As another example, if you really liked L5Rs roll a bunch of dice but only keep some of them, theres nothing stopping you.  I'd avoid using the same notation...6k3 or referring to it as "Keep", but the mechanics themselves shouldn't be a problem at all.

[Clinton R. Nixon]

Jon,

WEG (which is now called something bizarre like D6Corporation) has not licensed their d6 System for public use. I've seen a lot of free games using it, too. It's not legal, but they don't seem to crack down on them.

From just a "will I get in trouble?" standpoint, I'd posit that if you made a game and gave it away for free on your website, you wouldn't get in trouble. Once you move towards either print or selling, though, I'd expect you'd get shut down.

Valamir's right, though - dice mechanics aren't copyrightable, so it comes down to whether or not you claim to use their system. If not, you're fine.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi there,

As a strictly personal choice, one should consider whether to make such "lifts" as Clinton describes overt or covert.

Covert lifting is very common. My favorite is the 3d6, equal to or under your target value, which started in Melee (1977) and became practically "how it's done" for many games over the next decade. Another is "balancing advantages and disadvantages," from Champions. Arguably, all of this falls into "being influenced," but frankly that influence sure looks a lot like identity in many cases.

I tend to like it when lifting is overt. For instance, the introduction to Sorcerer explicitly states its influences from Prince Valiant, Cyberpunk, and Zero. I like the idea of explaining a die mechanic and saying, "I owe thanks to John Wick for his dice mechanic, first presented in L5R first edition, which has influenced my design of this game." This is the very opposite of infringement, it seems to me.

However, as stated in the first sentence of this post, we are talking about a personal concern. Granted, it plays right into professional, and aesthetic matters, but it's not something for which I or anyone else can tell someone what to do.

Best,
Ron

[Clinton R. Nixon]

I agree with Ron - I may not have come off that way above. I like crediting other game authors - I think it's important to see who a designer's influences are.

Donjon uses - to a much different end - almost the same dice mechanic as in Sorcerer. It just so happens to be my favorite dice mechanic, so I liberally use it. In the description of how to do resolution, the text reads:

For resolution in this game, you will be asked to compare rolls (called a Test). This is the core of the game, and using dice pools is a popular technique in other role-playing games. This version of it is highly based off of the main mechanic in the game Sorcerer (http://www.sorcerer-rpg.com) by Ron Edwards.

[Ron Edwards]

Hey,

So, back to quozl's point. If I'm reading your post right, you're interested in using the D6 system lock, stock, and barrel, as such. Is this the case?

If so, I think that it's not legal for you to publish that game, although obviously playing it is cool (that's what a general system like D6 is for, after all).

If you're not interested in commercial applications (ie selling anything), then you might consider posting material about the game or version of it you use on a website, if you get permission from the company and include a big link to the company website. I've observed many companies to be happy to give permission for this.

Best,
Ron

[Zak Arntson]

As I understand, you could just rewrite the mechanics separate from WEG and it'd be legal, since you can't copyright a game's system. I'd suggest you modify/create your own system inspired by d6 and run with that. (I'd also suggest you list WEG's d6 as an inspiration if you go that route)

I mean, legally, it looks like we could all write games with the White Wolf system, as long as we worded it right. But is that good game design? That's a topic for another thread.

[Blake Hutchins]

My impression is that WEG would be happy to have links to people who play their game.  The loss of the Star Wars license hit 'em pretty hard.  Were you to publish for sale, however, they'd be within their rights to remove your pancreas.  Legally speaking, that is.

Best,

Blake

[Dav]

Hey;

We used a hybrid model of the d6-system as the core mechanic for Obsidian.  We have never had any problem with it (in terms of infringement).  I think the main idea is that so long as you don't lift it (as Ron said) "lock, stock, and barrel" from WEG, it isn't a problem.  

Much of the differentiation can come from defining new traits/attributes, as well as permutations and adaptations.  In all, the base resolution system is a pool of d6 vs. target number, but the "overall" system takes a rapid departure from WEG from that point (I think).

I would say give credit where credit is due, certainly, but that there is little problem so long as there is enough differentiation that you couldn't say that your game is an alternative setting on the d6 system.

Dav

[Blake Hutchins]

Y'all should be fine with that approach, Dav.  I meant a "d6" game that mirrors the d6 system to the nines, not a "take the core mechanic and tweak it" approach.  John Tynes put his SG-1 d6 game online a couple of years ago, which replicated the core rules system plus Tynes's permutations.  I don't think it's up now, and if not, I don't know the reasons for it being pulled.  Could be the studio that owns the rights to Stargate as opposed to WEG.

And yeah, how you roll your dice isn't a patentable piece of IP.  If it were, nobody but DnD players would roll d20's in "official" rules.

Best,

Blake

[J B Bell]

I'm taking up the issue of dicing systems and IP in another thread.

--J B Bell