[FH8] Legends and Subterfuge

[Eric Provost]

We finally got together for our second playtest version of FH8 tonight.  You can check out our first playtest thread here.  Lisa and I have been sick all week, but Nik was eagerly on standby, waiting for us to be well enough to play for a couple hours.  So, when we felt like we could stay awake and talk for a few hours without coughing ourselves to death, we gave Nik a ring and set up a session.

Unfortunately, the session was only myself, Lisa, and Nik.  Ully is still under an avalance of work and Jason has other obligations this month that will prevent him from joining us.  Which is unfortunate.  The game would certainly benefit a lot from their input.

Tonight's session seemed quite a bit slower than the first session.  But, I think there are quite a few obvious reasons for the slowdown.  The first being that Lisa and I weren't up to our full potential, being half-sick still.  But other contributing factors included a poor Opening Scene setup on my part, a lot of theory and design talk in between each of the scenes, and a lack of direct effort to press forward.  Total tonight we had three scenes and two conflicts.  Total game time was probably about 3.5 hours (including our theory and design-talk time).

For the Opening Scene I used one of Nik's character's Twinings of Characters of Legend and narrated a legendary and ancient lizard woman coming to him in the realm of dreams and telling him about a Solid Thought that she calls the Staff of Dreams.   She told him that he could "be a ruler instead of a servant" if he were to remove it from this world and said that she felt that it was too dangerous of an item to be left amongst "her people."  I really really really hated this scene and I knew I'd hate it before I started narrating it.  While we ended up with some nifty narration about a realm of dreams that touched the realm the lizards live in we were missing two essential ingredients for a good scene;  Questions and Conflict.  Nik never had to answer any questions about his character, never had to make any choices for him, and there was no conflict between the PC and the Legendary Lizard.  It was poo.  I have so many thoughts for the chapter on Opening Scenes that need to be put down in words.  Thoughts that came from my prep work and from tonight's play. 

Tonight's Opening Scene was lackluster and that reflected upon the rest of the session.

The second scene was more interesting and a little more illuminating about the system as it stands.  Nik proposed a scene where his character (Shadrak the Nightmare) would convince Lisa's character (Ohru the Shaper) to hunt down this staff for him.  After a bit of discussion between Nik and Lisa they came up with the idea that the scene would include a conflict with the stakes of "Will Ohru's loyalty for Shadrak be greater than Ohru's loyalty for the Chieftain of Medina?"  This conflict ended up being really very interesting for me, as my repsonsiblities and authority as the PI were pretty much nill.  The conflict was between Lisa and Nik.  I didn't have any NPCs I wanted to inject into the scene.  As I was the Setting Director in the Opening Scene the position went to Lisa for this scene.  So, my place was to sit back, toss out a few ideas when they came to me, and be entertained by Lisa and Nik's scene.  I really dug that.  As Jason had mentioned concern about the time it took to resolve a conflict, I kept an eye on the clock for this one.  It took about 40 minutes from the first card draw to the final narration.  Not bad IMO, considering how much time we spent discussing what was and wasn't appropriate narration for certain card plays and for the position of SD. 

During that scene Nik suggested a month-and-a-half gap in time between one turn and another that Lisa (as the SD) approved.  I took that bit of narration to throw a couple of my Coins into the conflict to buy Ohru a temporary trait of The Chieftain has reaffirmed his loyalty to me - 4.  It didn't have any effect on the outcome of that conflict (which Lisa won) but it did have an effect on our third and final scene for the night.

Nik and Lisa both said that they wanted to hear about how the Chieftain had reaffirmed his loyalty to Ohru, so Lisa and I set up to act out that scene while Nik took the position as SD.  I was hoping to get Lisa into a conflict, but had to fish around for a while, as she'd already decided that Ohru was in the habit of doing dirty work for the Chieftain when he came calling.  I narrated the Chieftain coming to her in the early morning hours with a vial of poison for her to kill the son of his Advisor.  Lisa was cool with that.  I dug deeper, looking for that conflict, and narrated that it was a mineral poison that caused a very painful death.  That got her.  She didn't see Ohru going the painful route in murder.  I had my conflict.  The play of cards went a bit smoother this time, but still took about 40 minutes.  Mostly, I think, from all the time we were spending firing out really deep and interesting narration at each other.  Lisa and I seemed perpetually short on cards, each round having only one or two to choose from.  We were both digging deep, looking hard for more advantages we could narrate.  Eventually I ended up spending a couple coins and using the Pain & Suffering (The Sun/Temptation of Sade) advantages that I was avoiding to win the conflict.  I thought it was spectacular.  The chieftain won his conflict, convincing Ohru to deliver the poison, but was forced to reveal most of his deeper plans to her in the process.  Now he's wary of HER power and will be watching over his shoulder in the future.

Mid-session I confided in Nik and Lisa that I wasn't particularly happy with how the Consequences were set up and we spent maybe half an hour or so talking about them.  I think that we've got something now that satisfies all my goals.  Tomorrow I'll post the changes on my site.

Overall;

I thought it was slow & shallow, but I learned so much.  I can't wait to sit down with a clear head and work out all the changes to the text.  Lisa and Nik both claimed a really good time tonight and have promised some feedback, which I'm looking forward to hearing.

-Eric

[Lisa Provost]

I really really really hated this scene and I knew I'd hate it before I started narrating it.  While we ended up with some nifty narration about a realm of dreams that touched the realm the lizards live in we were missing two essential ingredients for a good scene;  Questions and Conflict.  Nik never had to answer any questions about his character, never had to make any choices for him, and there was no conflict between the PC and the Legendary Lizard.  It was poo. 

I completely agree.  After really thinking about it (without a Nyquil-addled mind) that is most certainly where Nik's conflict fell flat.  While the scenery was nice and some of the thoughts we had about his (and Eric's) narrations were good, there was nothing else keeping me really involved in the scene besides of course wanting to be able to give my input and reflection for the benfit of everyone involved.  There was nothing that really made me interested in what was happening to Nik's character.  Nothing about him changed.  Nothing about the scene challenged him.  Nothing about the scene questioned his beliefs/views/ideals about his character.  It was flat.  If at least one of those things had happened (a decision to be made, a conflict to resolve, or a belief to change), I think it would have been much better.

The second scene was more interesting and a little more illuminating about the system as it stands.  Nik proposed a scene where his character (Shadrak the Nightmare) would convince Lisa's character (Ohru the Shaper) to hunt down this staff for him.  After a bit of discussion between Nik and Lisa they came up with the idea that the scene would include a conflict with the stakes of "Will Ohru's loyalty for Shadrak be greater than Ohru's loyalty for the Chieftain of Medina?"  This conflict ended up being really very interesting for me, as my repsonsiblities and authority as the PI were pretty much nill.  The conflict was between Lisa and Nik.  I didn't have any NPCs I wanted to inject into the scene.  As I was the Setting Director in the Opening Scene the position went to Lisa for this scene.  So, my place was to sit back, toss out a few ideas when they came to me, and be entertained by Lisa and Nik's scene.  I really dug that.

I'm glad.  I dug it too.  :)  I was personally worried at the time that I might (inadvertantly) give myself a boost to my character in the conflict by being the SD while actively having a PC in the conflict.  I had thought to pass on the opportunity and make Eric do it (hoping that Nik would pass as well).  But I decided, this was a playtest dang-it and I should test how well this situation would work out so I stayed as the SD and it ended up re-enforcing for me anyway, how Ohru sees herself and her world, among other things.  To me, it was an experience for Ohru.  I see her differntly now.  One thing to note, she took a lot of pain from this conflict but I wasn't worried about it and that was a bad point to me.  (More below about that)

As Jason had mentioned concern about the time it took to resolve a conflict, I kept an eye on the clock for this one.  It took about 40 minutes from the first card draw to the final narration.  Not bad IMO, considering how much time we spent discussing what was and wasn't appropriate narration for certain card plays and for the position of SD. 

I was thoroughly surprised that it was 40 minutes.  I was so involved in the conflict that it seemed only a few minutes had passed to me... not 40.  :) 

Nik and Lisa both said that they wanted to hear about how the Chieftain had reaffirmed his loyalty to Ohru, so Lisa and I set up to act out that scene while Nik took the position as SD.  I was hoping to get Lisa into a conflict, but had to fish around for a while, as she'd already decided that Ohru was in the habit of doing dirty work for the Chieftain when he came calling.  I narrated the Chieftain coming to her in the early morning hours with a vial of poison for her to kill the son of his Advisor.  Lisa was cool with that.  I dug deeper, looking for that conflict, and narrated that it was a mineral poison that caused a very painful death.  That got her.  She didn't see Ohru going the painful route in murder.  I had my conflict.

Yes, with that simple option presented to Ohru, I knew she would not do that.  While she didn't mind murder, unnecessary suffering was -not- her cup of tea.  It was an instant decision but it shaped her ideals/beliefs a bit more for me.  I know her better now.

The play of cards went a bit smoother this time, but still took about 40 minutes.  Mostly, I think, from all the time we were spending firing out really deep and interesting narration at each other.  Lisa and I seemed perpetually short on cards, each round having only one or two to choose from.  We were both digging deep, looking hard for more advantages we could narrate.  Eventually I ended up spending a couple coins and using the Pain & Suffering (The Sun/Temptation of Sade) advantages that I was avoiding to win the conflict.  I thought it was spectacular.  The chieftain won his conflict, convincing Ohru to deliver the poison, but was forced to reveal most of his deeper plans to her in the process.  Now he's wary of HER power and will be watching over his shoulder in the future.

He won the conflict because Ohru folded.  The reason I folded was because I had thought of something Eric mentioned once in a different thread... "If the narration won't come, then don't force it.  Fold."  It fit.  I folded.  I know now that Ohru will do things she believes is horrible but now that the Chieftain was forced to show his hand to her, now she knows she has power over him and that eased her mind a bit. 

Mid-session I confided in Nik and Lisa that I wasn't particularly happy with how the Consequences were set up and we spent maybe half an hour or so talking about them.

Yeah, this was something I wasn't happy with either.  After the first conflict that Ohru was in, she was at 20 points of
pain and I wasn't worried about it.  But I should have been.  It should have made me shiver at the thought of how badly this would affect her and it didn't.  Once the changes in the consequences were put in place though, it was one of the reasons that I folded in the second conflict after having taken only 8 points of pain.  I was very worried about the consequences of what could happen if she took more pain than she already had taken. 

Overall, I think for my PC it went very well.  I learned more about her, her beliefs, and her desires. 

[Jason Morningstar]

Hey guys,

Glad you are feeling better and sorry I wasn't able to make it.  Regarding handling time, I'm glad you kept track and 40 minutes sounds similar to what we experienced in the first playtest.  Whether that is *too* long is an open question; I kinda think it is, but that's one sapient lizard's opinion.

Making consequences *matter* is going to be a big challenge, I suspect.  I've mentioned this before and I think this post bears out my concerns.

--Jason

[Paideuma]

Hi ho, sorry for the late reply, I swear I don't live to work... normally...

I suppose my waiting a few days gives me the advantage of having a different perspective.  Here's what comes to mind.

Eric and I were chatting online last week (before gaming) about previous games he'd run (some before my time as a player with him) versus his present games.  He said that he almost regrets having run those games based on the knowledge he now has, and I asked why?  I said that I'd heard other people speak so highly of them. Though I wasn't there, I've heard so many fond memories of these games talked about even today!  He replied that he'd had a few great scenes, but how long did he have to spend gaming to get those few?  I then, as a financial analyst would, understood it to be an investment of time with a hope to yeild entertainment value.

This time:entertainment ratio seemed interesting to me, and looking back on last week's game I can't help but say that it was a poorer investment.  Of course, several days (and a few airplane flights - oye!) have happened between now and then, and I tend to only remember the good sides of things.  But a key difference is:  In the first session, it was such a blast that I couldn't sit down and tell someone about all the nifty scenes because there were so many!  In the most recent session, I can sum it up pretty quickly.

While we ended up with some nifty narration about a realm of dreams that touched the realm the lizards live in we were missing two essential ingredients for a good scene;  Questions and Conflict.  Nik never had to answer any questions about his character, never had to make any choices for him, and there was no conflict between the PC and the Legendary Lizard.  It was poo.  I have so many thoughts for the chapter on Opening Scenes that need to be put down in words.  Thoughts that came from my prep work and from tonight's play. 

Tonight's Opening Scene was lackluster and that reflected upon the rest of the session.

I agree 100% on the poor opening scene setting the stage.  I would even venture that from a confidence standpoint, it's hard to proceed.  The mood for the night was set at being mediocre, and it never ventured far.  I also agree it was nice as a player to have a scene wherein the PI did nothing other than watch.  That already happens in lots of games, (you talk to other players about their characters and argue your character's perspective, trying to get a specific result) and this is a nice way to handle disputes without having to whine (though I reserve the right to continue whining if I need to [LOL]).

I was thoroughly surprised that it was 40 minutes. I was so involved in the conflict that it seemed only a few minutes had passed to me... not 40. :)

I respectfully disagree... my disagreement is only in the particular conflicts that came up that session - not 40 minutes as a rule.  I think this game's conflicts are going to naturally be longer than similar conflict resolution systems because of the introduction of the Setting Director.  This extra person who literally does nothing more than fill in the blue-screen set is going to slow conflicts down.  That being said, I love the role!  Keep it!  They add more than they detract!  The reason the conflicts were a bit long to me had to do more with the pace of the evening being slow.  Eric's opening scene left a bit to be desired and Lisa was sick.  I didn't do my part by injecting energy into the session.  I did some by being my normally gay self, but not enough.  It's not Eric's or Lisa's fault the session was slow any more than it was mine.  If I wanted a fast-paced session, I should have put a lot more into it.  Because I didn't, the conflicts seemed to drag.

He won the conflict because Ohru folded. The reason I folded was because I had thought of something Eric mentioned once in a different thread... "If the narration won't come, then don't force it. Fold." It fit. I folded. I know now that Ohru will do things she believes is horrible but now that the Chieftain was forced to show his hand to her, now she knows she has power over him and that eased her mind a bit.

Smart move.  I agree and am going to attempt to do the same thing when my narration won't come.

Mid-session I confided in Nik and Lisa that I wasn't particularly happy with how the Consequences were set up and we spent maybe half an hour or so talking about them.  I think that we've got something now that satisfies all my goals.  Tomorrow I'll post the changes on my site.

Yup!  Definately some good consequences that do what we wanted them to do.  You have Lisa and my full buy-in on that idea!

In summary, I look forward to the next playtest, but feel strongly that 2 players and 1 PI aren't enough.  I don't know why 4 seems like such a magical number, but it seems to be, in my opinion, the minimum number of people you have to have present for this RPG, and maybe RPGs of this nature, in general.  Lisa and I are as creative as any 3 people, but there's something about that third player that seems like it would add so much more.  I'm going to give more thought as to why, but I'd pose the suggestion that this game not be played with fewer than 4 (1 PI, 3 players).  Maybe it's the whole Setting Director role that intensifies the feeling that 2 players aren't enough... *scratches chin* It could also be personal preference on my part... *shrug*

Until next time (whenever Eric and my schedule will allow)...

-Nik