UtB rules question: Ending the Game (and stakes in conflicts in general)

[Eetu]

So, when one character has six Favorite tokens, the Stakes of his next conflict are those of the story. If he wins, the game is over. So far, fine, but I'm confused as to what actually happens if the conflict is lost.

The text of the game seems to imply that the game just continues with all those at six tokens revisiting the same stakes with the other toys supporting, until someone wins. To me this seems strange, as it implies that 1) at the end, the story always ends the same and 2) resolution of stakes is in no way final, if you can revisit the contest however many times you want. If this is the case in the final conflict, does this also apply to all the other conflicts?

What's up with this? (and the paragraph in question also mentions that those with fewer tokens can act against one of the high-favorite toys. How's that handled?)

- Eetu

[Joshua A.C. Newman]

Hi, Eetu! Welcome!

So, when one character has six Favorite tokens, the Stakes of his next conflict are those of the story. If he wins, the game is over. So far, fine, but I'm confused as to what actually happens if the conflict is lost.

The text of the game seems to imply that the game just continues with all those at six tokens revisiting the same stakes with the other toys supporting, until someone wins. To me this seems strange, as it implies that 1) at the end, the story always ends the same and 2) resolution of stakes is in no way final, if you can revisit the contest however many times you want. If this is the case in the final conflict, does this also apply to all the other conflicts?

One of two things can happen, and I was wishy-washy about the phrasing in the book. Here's the canonical answer: If the player with six tokens loses, the game ends there, the stakes of the child's life unfulfilled. If you wanto to play that way, state it up front with the rest of the setting information. OR! the player loses a token, just like normal, and play continues, just like normal.

When one player has six tokens, every time that player's turn comes up, the stakes are the same: it's the stakes for the whole story. That doesn't mean it's the same conflict, it just means the stakes are different.

What's up with this? (and the paragraph in question also mentions that those with fewer tokens can act against one of the high-favorite toys. How's that handled?)

Here's the setup: Alice has 6 stones and is narrating the next conflict. Bob has 3. Charlotte has 3. It's Bob's turn. Everyone knows that there's a 50/50 chance that Alice will get drawn next, and her chances of having the winning toy are pretty high. So Charlotte offers her Characteristics to Bob. They're ganging up, fighting side-by-side. Bob gets to use Charlotte's dice, which he needs because Alice is throwing 6, so the chances of failure are pretty good. So you have Bob's wind up turtle being ridden by Charlotte's baloon dog.

Alice's chances of winning, when it gets back around to her turn, are still pretty good, but since she's decided to take coins instead of Characteristics, she might not do so well on her turn.

Mechanically, what's going on there is a reduction of a death spiral that happened in one or two games. It's also one of few ways that toys can interact within the rules.

The other way, I'll leave for you to discover. Or ask about.

Be sure to post your Actual Play! I need rules questions like this for clarifications in the upcoming second ed.

[ejh]

I had the same question/confusion reading through the rules tonight.  I am currently at some friends' house and have not successfully convinced two of them to try it out.  (Got one, but you need three to play...)

Damn.

[Eetu]

Thanks for the answers, and explaining also the mechanical reasoning. Just one more minor detail:

... OR! the player loses a token, just like normal, and play continues, just like normal.

When one player has six tokens, every time that player's turn comes up, the stakes are the same: it's the stakes for the whole story. That doesn't mean it's the same conflict, it just means the stakes are different.

So does he continue to address the stakes of the story in every conflict even after he loses the sixth token, or does he need to ramp his tokens back up to six again before? (assuming there are still available additional characteristic cards on the table)

- Eetu

[Joshua A.C. Newman]

Yes, that's correct: you can't confront the story Stakes unless you have six tokens.

A correction:

When one player has six tokens, every time that player's turn comes up, the stakes are the same: it's the stakes for the whole story. That doesn't mean it's the same conflict, it just means the stakes are different.

... should read:

When one player has six tokens, every time that player's turn comes up, the stakes are the same: it's the stakes for the whole story. That doesn't mean it's the same conflict, it just means the stakes are the same.

So, for instance, if the Stakes for the story are, "Will I get respect from my big sister?" and you have six tokens, the conflict might be "Will you steal back your bike from your big sister? She's big, she hid it well, and she's mad at you." with the stakes being, really, "Will I get respect from her?"

If you fail there, then someone else has six tokens, the conflict might be "There's an ogre attacking her! It eats children, and it smells like gradma's house," but the stakes are still, "Do I get respect from my big sister?"