New path to Nar/Sim blend?

[JakeVanDam]

Jason DeVrieze and I are working on a new game based around an idea I've never seen used before, and I was just wondering if anyone has senn it done before. If so, did it do well at fulfilling the goals that we want it to fulfill? If not, does it seem as if it will do so?

The base rules are designed to primarily reflect reality. We've gone to great pains to ensure that the rules reflect reality more accurately and more thoroughly than what we've seen on the market. We've found that it isn't difficult to make a very realistic rules set, while still keeping the rules simple and minimizing the need for referencing charts and such. This simplicity makes it possible to focus one's attention to developing interesting characters, rather than keeping up with the rules. The sim rules help reduce the need for the players to suspend their disbelief, which helps to create a more coherent story

The result that we hopr to arrive at is a system that makes naritivist play possible, and encourages it through rewards (mostly character improvement), but doesn't use a narativist resolution mechanic, which can be intimidating to players who aren't used to nar gameplay.

Am I even making sense here? Are we trying to reinvent the wheel?

[Halzebier]

Hello Jake (and Welcome to the Forge)!

Am I even making sense here? Are we trying to reinvent the wheel?

Sounds to me as if you are trying to reinvent the philosopher's stone. But that's really my gut reaction to "realism" speaking - don't let that put you off. "Jason DeVrieze and I are working on a new game based around an idea I've never seen used before" sounds promising, so please tell us more about the game you have in mind.

Check out the following thread to learn of the kind of information you could provide:

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=16809.0

Regards,

Hal

[JakeVanDam]

I'm going to put a thread up in the developement section, but it's going to take a few minutes since the rules have changed a great deal since the last time we bothered to type them all out, and I'd like to include as much as possible. I plan to stick mostly to the format proposed in that thread, since it'll make things a lot more coherent than my fevered rantings.

[Bankuei]

Hi,

Could you explain better what you mean by "Narrativist Resolution"?  It sounds like you might be mistaking resolution that uses narration trading or group narration for "narrativist".

And, if you haven't checked out Burning Wheel or Riddle of Steel yet, you might find them interesting as both of these games have a fairly heavy "realism" factor going on along with strong Narrativist rewards.  Also without anything beyond traditional or standard narration in their resolution systems.

Chris

[JakeVanDam]

By 'narrativist resolution' I meant a resolution mechanic which hinges on the impact on the story, rather than character statistics. I understand that this is not narrativism in and of itself,. but I tend to associate it with heavy narraitivist games. I guess that wasn't the best choice of words.

I've thought about piccking up Burning Wheel and Riddle of Steel, but I already have more games than I have time to play. I guess I could call it research, though, since they may be going for the same thing we are, and I can see several major simularities. There still seem to be enough key differences that I don't have to worry about being seen as a 'clone' of either of those games (which is something that I tend to worry about, even though I know it's unnecesary).

[Bankuei]

Hi Jake,

I'd very highly recommend that you and Jason check out one or both of these games.  From your initial post, you mentioned that neither of you have seen games which adhere to "realism" and utilize reward systems to acheive narrativist play- in the same sense, what would you tell someone who came up to you and said,  "I've never seen a flying machine, but I've got this idea to build one from scratch..."?

In the end, if you build a solid game, then it's a solid game and that's all people are going to see*.  And it's going to be a lot easier for you to build a solid game when you're informed about how other people have done it, even if you're doing it completely differently.  Hopefully you'll do it better, but until you look you're basically flying blind.

I look forward to seeing what you guys have in mind...

Chris

*How many people do you know who recognize D20 as a hybrid of Magic: the Gathering, Talislanta, the Interlock system, and Feng Shui/WW's laundry list of powers?   Yeah, no one does.  Don't worry about it, just check out as many games as you can.

[JakeVanDam]

We've both checked out quit a number of systems. The fact that neither of us could find a system that had everything we wanted is actually what led us to decide to try to create our own. We have only recently come across the indie game community, so our exposure is mostly limited to things made by the larger companies. Thank you for the advice so far.

[timfire]

By 'narrativist resolution' I meant a resolution mechanic which hinges on the impact on the story...

Do you mind giving us some examples of the above from actual games, or at the very least, could you expand this idea? I'm not sure I understand what you mean, because if we ARE thinking the same thing, then there are actually very few games that work like you mention above.

[Josh Roby]

By 'narrativist resolution' I meant a resolution mechanic which hinges on the impact on the story, rather than character statistics.

You mean Conflict Resolution as opposed to Task Resolution?

Or do you mean spending metagame currency instead of relying solely on the scope of a character's abilities?

[Callan S.]

Jeez, were all questions at the forge, eh? :)

We've both checked out quit a number of systems. The fact that neither of us could find a system that had everything we wanted is actually what led us to decide to try to create our own.

What do you mean by 'everything we wanted'? Like, say you've gotten play where you've made an address of premise (something like choosing whether you grapple your murderous brother so he gets arrested or help him escape, those sorts of choices). What else do you want in addition to that? Stuff like the grapple rules creating a really realistic grappling scene?

[JakeVanDam]

Sorry that I'm having trouble being clear on terms. I still keep slipping into the lexicon used in my flgs. I re-read a couple articles, and what I was trying to describe is Drama Resolution.

In answer to Callan S.'s question, we wanted a system in which assist in determing the result of a decision from an adress of premise, but where the crunch doesn't tend to play a role in this decision, and the results don't tend to force the players to suspend their disbelief. There are games that are supposed to do this, but they never seem to work in execution. I'm not sure if this means that the examples we've seen have just failed in this respect, or if it means that our endevor is doomed from the beggining.

[Bankuei]

Hi Jake,

Maybe you could name a game or two that you're talking about?  I'm still a bit confused.  The most immediate game I can think of that is uses primarily drama resolution is Theatrix.  I will say right now that there ARE games out there that fulfill what you're talking about, and that it is possible.  Hopefully you'll share some of that design with us in the future and we'll be able to get a better idea of what it is you're talking about, right now it's too vague for anyone to give any informed comments.

Chris

[ewilen]

I think Jake is referring to resolution which relies to some extent on the Law of Drama as defined in Everway. Note that Drama in Forge terms simply means resolution which is based on a freeform judgment. A resolution system could use Drama in one or the other sense, or both, or neither.

[Callan S.]

In answer to Callan S.'s question, we wanted a system in which assist in determing the result of a decision from an adress of premise, but where the crunch doesn't tend to play a role in this decision, and the results don't tend to force the players to suspend their disbelief. There are games that are supposed to do this, but they never seem to work in execution.

Hi again,

How would your game ensure another address of premise happens? Like, say your exploring all the consequences of the address, and exploring them, and exploring them, etc. It could be quite easy to keep exploring them and not get to another address, because exploring is fun, and making an address of premise is daunting (even if it is fun as a whole).

Is it possible that the other games required suspension of disbelief because at that point rather than exploring further consequence they are guiding play toward another address of premise?