good reviews not enough?!?

[Joshua A.C. Newman]

You've just tapped into the secret of RPG.net.

Your site certainly looks better than it did. That's a good start.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Darrick,

There you go! The real value of a review is permitting you the opportunity to show either (a) gracious appreciation of someone's efforts on your behalf, or (b) dignity and enthusiasm in the face of stupidity. Both of these will generate sales.

Note that ";positive" and "negative" reviews can both be found in (a), so make sure you know which way you want to go with your responses. Seems like you have a good handle on this.

I strongly suggest abandoning banners altogether. Focused, mutual link exchange with sites you really care about is much more productive.

Best,
Ron

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Then you had to go and blow it, didn't you? ... Damn, Darrick, you seem determined to harm your own success.

Here's the advice I'd give to anyone about reviews and posting on-line.

1. Do not write reviews of your own work.

2. Especially do not write reviews of your own work, then come here and talk about them as if they were independent reviews.

3. Do not post in forums under fake names, pretending you're some guy who likes your game.

4. Do not ever vilify, make fun of, or insult anyone on-line. Not even someone who insults you.

Do you have to take this advice? Nope. You don't have to do anything.

But if you are interested in any sort of commercial success for your game, then I'd suggest it.

Best,
Ron

[darrick]

please ask me before you assume the worst...

the review that i co-wrote on gamewyrd was one of the first notifications after i put EoS on lulu.  i say right in the first sentence that i'm the author and that the whole "review" is just a chance for people to see what this game is about, you know, get the word out there.  since i admit all those things right off the bat, i don't see any harm, deceit, or indecency in what i did.

nor have i ever talked about that review as if it was "real".  i pretty much forgot about my self-review post of EoS right after i did it. 

about the fake post... while i did say that i liked and played EoS (both true), i didn't post such things in order to "drum up business" or become my own cheering section.  by the way, where were you guys?  my main purpose was in trying to find out exactly why people don't like games like mine and SenZar.  it's pretty much the exact same post i did at the Forge, except i had to use a puppet account because i'd been banned from rpg.net

on point 4. we're just going to have to wildly disagree.  if someone insults you once and you ignore it, then cool - you are the bigger man and can let it go without shame.  however, if that someone persists in directly insulting you (which he did), then to my way of thinking, you are obligated to insult him back or else look like some kind of wuss.  this is just my own personal feelings.  i just never back down, never ever ever.  if insulting persists, i always attack them back.  that's just the way i roll, baby.

as others have said about my niche project, commercial success seems unlikely even if i were to follow "the rules".  i could try to change myself or the type of games i love, but i don't want to.

thanks for the email and i appreciate the concern.

by the way, the latest pot-shot review of Empire of Satanis has generated even MORE hits and sales. 

D
http://www.cultofcthulhu.net

[daMoose_Neo]

...  however, if that someone persists in directly insulting you (which he did), then to my way of thinking, you are obligated to insult him back or else look like some kind of wuss. 

Congrats on the additional sales and interest garnered, but...obligated to insult?
As I've posted elsewhere, mostly on behalf of your defense I might add, part of the sheer horror behind SenZar was the way the developers handled themselves in the face of critisism...exactly like that. It has the markings of an immature child on the playground and doesn't help a professional image of any kind. If someone keeps stepping on toes, you don't insult them, you firmly set the record straight for once and walk away, leaving them blubbering insults behind you, leaving them looking childish and ignorant. The nice thing about a forum is that it is fairly static - once you've made a post, unless you retroactively edit it, its there for all to see. Someone walks into the middle of a flamewar they see it ALL, not just the last three seconds. If they walk in and see Side A being calm, patient, and supporting their own arguement in the face of ignorance and Side B spouting unfounded accusations, they'll take Side A a little more seriously. If they walk in and see both spouting what amounts to "No, YOU'RE the doody head!", then its game over.
At this point, I have to wonder how many people are looking the game over to judge for themselves or if they're so amused by childish arguements they wanted to see if there were any fact to the initial claims...

[darrick]

that's a darn good point.  but this is how i see it - the vocal minority on rpg.net is nothing but childish (at least in regards to me).  if there was a modicum of maturity or empathy, i would have let the insults go, or try to argue my point.  but those threads are not the "real world" which we live in, places like that are simply 3rd grade recess.  i don't think it's possible to reason with 3rd graders, just play their own game or don't play at all.  i thought about just leaving the playground, but they were talking about my game and i felt i should say something... even if it's only to called them a doodoo head back.

not that i actually wish this to happen, but just for the sake of satisfying my morbid curiosity, i'd love to see someone completely rip something like Sorcerer a new one.  obviously the opinions of this review would be utterly biased and unfounded, but Sorcerer would get the very same treatment that i did.  then everyone started personally attacking poor Ron, his game, and calling him a whiny bitch and a whole lot more.  trying to reason with them, would do no good at all.  you'd either have to ignore everyone berating you for literally thousands of people to read, or fight back like an irate 4th grader in return.  what would you guys do?  as the creator, as a innocent bystander, as someone who likes Sorcerer?  i hope that everyone wouldn't ignore the idiotic crap coming from these guys.  something to think about...
  (by the way, i'm only using Ron and his game Sorcerer because he's so well respected and it's hard for me to imagine something like the above actually happening).

anyways... now that i can't respond to the last 3 pages, it's more of the same (with the exception of Jasper).  so i'm kinda glad i'm out of that thread, but i still feel like giving them a taste of their own medicine. 

if people want to read/buy Empire of Satanis to see the car crash or have fun reading the "worst of the worst" rpg, or even see if my game is as bad as everyone says it is, that's fine by me.  let me be the Jerry Springer of roleplaying games!!!  ;)  better infamous than famous, i say.  especially with a game like mine.

it's 2:30 pm Saturday, and i just checked lulu less than an hour ago.  i sold 6 hard copies of EoS since the review went up yesterday morning.  that is the best business i've done yet.  so i'm glad that i made the call i did.

D
http://www.cultofcthulhu.net

[Joshua A.C. Newman]

Darrick, man, I gotta thank you for an hour long laugh last night. No small amount of laughing was at other people in those threads, but some was at you, too. You (plural) act like a bunch of 11-year-olds bickering over a typo in the Traveller appendix.

First off, why curse anyone who gives you a bad review? You've seen that they give you sales. That's excellent! Love them! Be grateful!

Now, if you want to really talk about the game itself take it over to Indie Game Design and ask for help. You'll have to answer some difficult questions, and some of them you'll be able to answer easily. Your publicity machine seems to be tipping over and catching fire with entertaining results, but it's unsustainable. You need a good game with good presentation to reach even your niche.

You probably want to check out anyway. There are some really good, critically important essays on game design there. Plus, I've never met a man who didn't like Vincent. Woman, neither.

[Ron Edwards]

Yes, my advice is that you leave illogical and stupid challenges unanswered.

Long experience has in fact taught me this, and yes, in regard to Sorcerer, as it happens.

Best,
Ron

[Mike Holmes]

Darrick, are you serious? You don't think that Ron and Sorcerer have ever been ripped on RPG.net? Holy cats man, people constantly lay into Ron, The Forge, "Forge Games," Sorcerer, other Adept Press games, etc, etc, etc. It would undoubtedly be worse, too, except for the fact that Ron doesn't respond to them, and we have a general policy here of not responding to attacks (and of trying to refrain from making them on rpg.net outselves).

Are you aware if the term "troll" and what it means?

1. Poster X wants to make you look like a fool.
2. Poster X insults you.
3. You respond in childish kind.
4. Poster X has succeeded in making you look like a fool.

You can continue to take the bait on these, or you can ignore them and they'll go away. Don't feed the trolls! The more you respond, the more they'll keep insulting you. You're encouraging them.

Now, any publicity is good publicity, true. But in the case of looking like a fool, that really doesn't help you sell games in the long run. Who wants to buy a game from a fool? The sales that are generated will be to people with a morbid curiousity like those who purchase SenZar or, more likely Synnibar, to check out the "Plan 9 From Outer Space" of RPGs. Which means that they'll read it a bit, laugh at it (even if it's not really laughable otherwise - they'll be looking for excuses to laugh at it), and then never play it. And play of a game is what spreads it and sells more copies.

Ron's telling you what you can do to make your game an ongoing enterprise. If you want it to just be relegated to the heap of joke games, keep up your habit of replying to the trolls and using dubious methods of generating publicity. Just like these guys: http://www.thegamecrafter.com/de_home

Never heard of them? I'm not surprised.

Mike

[Luke]

Hey Darrick,

I just wanted to chime in as a veteran of some harsh rpg.net flamewars and as a huge fan of rpg.net.

I've made similar mistakes as you and I learned, as Ron and Mike have pointed out, not to ever respond to that level of derision or negativity. I read the thread. Those guys aren't interested discussing your game. They aren't going to change their opinions. And your defense of it, in light of their nonsense, only makes you look worse. Just let the monkeys laugh and point fingers. They'll be forgotten soon enough.

As you said, all the publicity was good for the game -- you got more sales! The hardest part is looking at those reviews in an honest way and deciding whether or not they had some valid criticisms. I had to do the same thing for Burning Wheel, and I even went so far as to THANK the negative reviewers in the revised edition. They really did make the game better.

-Luke

Also, personally, I hope I never see you using your religion to attack anyone again. It's really uncool.