Old group, new Creative Agenda?

[oliof]

Frank,

I think you're searching for the One True Way(TM) to hook your old group on your newfound, let's call it 'refined' way of gaming.
As in the other threads, "Show, Don't Tell".

This is how I'd do it. I'd tell the group "Next time, we won't continue our ongoing gaming, but we'll have something like an interruption." I'd tell them at the end of a normal session. I wouldn't indulge them with the fine details of theory, since they obviously weren't inclined to think about their gaming that way before.

Then, there are two ways of going on, according to my book: Either you present an underrated part of the game world you all know with a new system (as a lame example, use Primetime Adventures to cast a show that is a documentary about life on a star destroyer). This has the advantage that the group is accustomed to the color of the game world, but bears the dangers of people falling back into their usual gaming habits because of that clinging familiarity.

Or, You go the whole way, giving your group the complete package. A highly structured game like My Life with Master, Dogs in the Vineyard, possibly The Mountain Witch, is probably the best choice, because it's very clear what the game's agenda is. This can help the players accept the 'new agenda' as something that is part of the game, not something you want to force on them because you've played with too many freaks and now have become one yourself.

Apart from that, you probably know exactly what you don't want, so please try to read some sense into what feeble amounts of people who are not you and don't know the group in question. I still love the rants.

Regards,
    Harald

[Callan S.]

Hi Frank,

I have some players who, for lack of a clear Agenda supported by the whole group and the System, try to Step On Up more often than they do other stuff. And yes, I have tried to respond to the Stepping On Up tendecies.

Okay, that wording is a real worry. Imagine you play a nar game but latter overheard another player saying 'I tried to respond to these dramatic tendencies he has'. Do you imagine they were really interested in your address of premise?

If their is no gamist cohesion in the group, it may well be because your part of that group and really don't have any interest in supporting it. That's why the gamism doesn't go anywhere for you to follow.

And now as I try to do this trick again, there's sure some people to jump up who've read too much theory lately, and they're gonna refer me to Dogma No. 3 which says that it always be Badwrongfun to make other people play your way.

Anyone who says that is a jerk. However, your not going to get the player input you said you wanted. Of course you don't need player input to have a fun night.

Which is really only to say, yes, I have considered following their lead, but it doesn't really lead anywhere. Also, I don't see why they shouldn't be able to give creative input only because I take a lead. Now if I want to do some improvised Blues and play the guitar, and you sing to it, would you say you give no input just because it's not Jazz?

But are they going to sing, or give you further teflon coated characters? There's no physical reason they can't give input. However, giving input means taking the lead on what happens next...would that mean taking the lead away from you? The person who's showing them how to do this thing?

Provocative questions, I'm sure.

[Frank T]

Hey Callan,

Right, some none-ranty answers to some serious questions.

I didn't mean "Gamist tendencies" to have a negative connotation. Written communication is tricky, isn't it? I actually enjoy some good High Exploration Gamist play every now and then. Only it's losing its edge on me pretty quickly, and, as I mentioned, I've run out of Challenge for Star Wars d6 long ago.

As for getting them to sing, there is a problem. Eero had a good point about the tearing sheets apart. It'd be great if I could make that game a "we check out this new game" instead of "I show you this new game". Of course, given the circumstances, it's not very likely that they won't look to me for guidance. And maybe you're right and I won't get any input from them at all. That remains to be seen. What I'm trying to figure out right now is the best approach to open them up for playing this game without presumptions, without falling back into old habits.

Sadly, I'm probably the reason for their lack of input so far. I set up this expectation of "don't mess with my plot". I am probably bullying them with my extensive RPG experience and knowledge. Also, I think Andrew's words about player narration are very true. They have this "stage fright" because of me.

You know, probably if I handed them a copy of PtA to play on their own, and one of them took the time to read through it and explain it to the others, they'd come up with cool stuff and have tons of fun. Only my presence at the table makes things complicated. *sigh*

- Frank

[oliof]

Frank,

maybe You could use a guest GM? Someone who introduces the Nar stuff while You are "on your groups' side", so to speak? It would add up some of the benefits: The group would try out a new game, You'd not be the guiding leader as before. On the other hand, there'd be a GM You don't know as well as yourself, and who doesn't know the group as well. But this might work out as an advantage, because he is not in lock-step with the expectations of the players. You could try to get them to a convention (possibly hard) or invite some of the freaks You know.

Regards,
    Harald

[Frank T]

Hey Harald,

Is that an offer? :-)

- Frank

[oliof]

Frank,
if you think my proposal would work, I would volunteer. We could even conspire and create the perfect session. Illusionist narrativistic double plotting.....

In short: yes.

[Callan S.]

That was a gutsy post, Frank, to air those sort of conclusions of yours. :)

In terms of gamist tendencies, I didn't think you meant it in a negative. However, I did think it lacked any sense of 'Eyes bright, sitting forward' for gamism. I understand running out of challenges for star wars though. However, your players are giving you characters that are teflon coated at a personality level, right? Could you ask for dangerous situations from the players, that their PC might be in? Problematic situation rather than problematic personal life.

It'd be great if I could make that game a "we check out this new game" instead of "I show you this new game".

It'd be great if it could be something like them reading the book then telling you how it all works, with you previously ignorant of that. Knowledge is power and it may be a good step to protagonising the players and making them feel they are in command. It'll also demonstrate that your not going to kick up a fuss about that.

You could get something like that if you prompted them to make a bunch of houserules for a game you already play. Assuming you GM (it'd be preferable if they did), they can still tell you as GM how those house rules work. I'd really recommend that they don't hand over the list of house rules to you...it's intimidating to just air them to the scrutiny of the GM. Tell them just to write some up and tell you as GM when they come into effect. That'll probably feel pretty wierd to you (it would to me as GM), but it'll shake up the traditional power distribution system you all have. That wierd feeling is part of that shakeup.

[Frank T]

Hi everyone,

I know this thread is a little old to post to it. Please bear with me. I just want to bring it to a proper close and thank everybody that contributed. Two weeks ago, I had a chance to talk to the two girls that are not cops. I explained to them what DitV is, what I like about it, and what I fear could happen if we run it in our group.

Something clicked, especially with the girl that is really anti-church. It was when I said: "See, your character believes in different things then yourself, but the game is still all about what you believe is right." And something lit in her eye, as if she was surprised this actually sounded fun.

Both the girls agreed we could be bound for trouble with our two cops. But then they said: "Whatever, let's give it a try." And that was that. I think I will spin the supernatural dial up high, that might help to stay clear of shallow waters. But Dogs it is. I'll report back when we've played.

- Frank

[oliof]

I am very interested in the outcome. Maybe you should have the girls talk to the two cops. If they don't like the premise, do it with the girls only as a portal to other games. I think I wrote it somewhere else - one of the most avid fans of the setting at my convention game was someone who thought he'd be playing something like Deadlands!